Bass Bar Profile Question??

[Aren Winebrenner]

When your bass bar has been fitted and glued, what is your method for profiling the top of the bar? I've read several books and looked at hundreds of pictures and there seems to be a wide range of methods for finishing the bar. I've seen some that taper down to nothing at the ends with a gradual radius up to an exaggerrated hump in the center. Others with a flat middle 1/3 section. Some divided into 5 sections with each having its own contours, both top to bottom and side to side. Others yet very flat all the way only to taper drastically within roughly the 5 or 6 inches of the ends. Do you use different profiles depending on dimensions and properties of the top that is receiving the bar?

I recently re-read the section on bass bars, from "The Art Of Violin Making". The proportions in that book look pretty good to me, but I'm just not sure. I've also got Chuck Traegers book as well as Henry Wake's book. It's really starting looking like everyone has their own "secret recipe" for this.

What is your take?

Thanks,
Aren Winebrenner

[Ken Smith]

Bars? Well, I have only made one myself personally and that was over 30 years ago. I think I did good but that was only one Bass. I have however seen many many Bars form the inside and can tell you this. There is no standard that I can see.

This is where it is necessary to be an experienced Luthier. The Bar must be made for THAT particular Bass and match its strengths and weaknesses.
Read Jeff Bollbach's 'rant' (http://www.jeffbollbach.com/JB%20II/luthier_rant3.htm) about Bassbars. It will help open your eyes. Hence, don't spring the 'Bar in a Bass!

Often I think Bassbars are replaced when they don't need to be during restorations and just as often possibly 'not' replaced when they should be. What determines that? Well, if it aint broke, dont fix it!

My Prescott was restored awhile back and the Bar looked to be in there for well over 100 years and possibly 150 from when it replaced the original and was converted to a 4-string from a 3-string. The top was fine and the sound fantastic so why bother. The Bass turned out beyond ones expectations.

Also in restoration as I write this is an old olde 18th century English Bass. The 'Bar looks to be a good 100-150 years old as well but this one is tiny. The Bass is a 4/4 size Bass (aka full sized) and the Bar is short. Mainly because it was only used with Gut strings in the past. It has never seen steels and has not been played in a lifetime. The 'Bar is also very very low and the Top itself has 'zero' sinkage. The Top is strong tight grained vertical Spruce, very tight grained like 'ice age' growth wood. This gives the Bass extra strength in the Top which has about the same arch it had when made well over 200 years ago.

The important factor here is that the Bass Bar must be made for 'that' particular Bass. It's position/angle, length, depth, shape, width etc..

I say this from the experience of looking at Basses with good Bars that work and some that don't. Arnold I am sure can tell you if he's up to the task (he is busy with 3 of my basses and has his 'do not disturb' sign out most of the time) or if he wants to spill his beans.

Regardless of who tells what or where, the Bass Bar like any other part of the instrument needs just as much thought as anything else in a Bass. Maybe even more!

[Aren Winebrenner]

the Bass Bar like any other part of the instrument needs just as much thought as anything else in a Bass. Maybe even more!

That's what scares me!!!:eek:

I have made just one instrument so far, under the tutelage of Kevin Flannery in Grand Rapids, MI. So I'm very new to all of this. I picked up a "very distressed" turn of the century Germanic shop bass as an instrument to practice various repair techniques on (as it needed just about every repair imaginable short of a scroll/neck graft). It had an integral bar with cracks to match, so it had to go. I used Kevin's methods for determining bar length and placement. Which brings me to this. I have discussed this with Kevin, but with everyone having their own idea of how to approach it, I thought best to see what some of the other battle hardened veterans have to say!

Thanks Ken.

[Ken Smith]

That's what scares me!!!:eek:

I have made just one instrument so far, under the tutelage of Kevin Flannery in Grand Rapids, MI. So I'm very new to all of this. I picked up a "very distressed" turn of the century Germanic shop bass as an instrument to practice various repair techniques on (as it needed just about every repair imaginable short of a scroll/neck graft). It had an integral bar with cracks to match, so it had to go. I used Kevin's methods for determining bar length and placement. Which brings me to this. I have discussed this with Kevin, but with everyone having their own idea of how to approach it, I thought best to see what some of the other battle hardened veterans have to say!

Thanks Ken.

Short of a Graft? Let me ask you a few questions so we can be sure the neck is correct. I ask this because it is easier to work on the Neck before you close up the Bass. Getting the old one out and the basic fit I mean. The Neck set is usually done with Top and Back on for alignment.

What is the Neckstand currently on the Bass?
Do you know how tall the bridge was with low string height before?
How wide are the C bouts?
The neck block (hope it has one) is mortise or dovetail joint?

These are some basics for consideration.

[Aren Winebrenner]

The neckstand is too short/low at this point and is in a mortise joint. I'll be carving a new neck block and adding to the heel to modernize the overstand. It's not the worst that I've seen but could definitley be higher. If memory serves me well, I think its only about 12-13mm as is. I don't recall the bridge height right now but I know it is on the short side. I don't recall the width of the C bouts right now either. I'll check it out when I get home tonight, and report back.

I hesitated to dive in on this bass, but given all the work that needed done to it, the repair/restoration costs would have far outweighed the value of the instrument. So I thought what the heck, I don't plan on this being the only one, and ya gotta start somewhere!

[Ken Smith]

The neckstand is too short/low at this point and is in a mortise joint. I'll be carving a new neck block and adding to the heel to modernize the overstand. It's not the worst that I've seen but could definitley be higher. If memory serves me well, I think its only about 12-13mm as is. I don't recall the bridge height right now but I know it is on the short side. I don't recall the width of the C bouts right now either. I'll check it out when I get home tonight, and report back.

I hesitated to dive in on this bass, but given all the work that needed done to it, the repair/restoration costs would have far outweighed the value of the instrument. So I thought what the heck, I don't plan on this being the only one, and ya gotta start somewhere!

My Gilkes neck overstand was about the same as yours is before it was restored and is now 36mm but in adding a Button to increase the neck stand, you have to watch the neck angle pitch and bridge height ratio. Get your 'numbers' lined up correctly. I would say 6.5" is about average height for a bridge with low string height.

The Block can be built up inside the bass if it needs to be deeper and in the mortise as well. Making a whole new neck block should be a last resort. Both my Olde English bass and my Hart had their blocks built up in both the mortise and the depth in the bass. The fit to the shoulders, back and top didn't need correcting. Just the added piece to the bottom of the block. Old wood is good wood unless it is unrepairable.

[Aren Winebrenner]

Making a whole new neck block should be a last resort.

Agreed, I would rather not make a new neck block. However, at the base of the mortise, in the corner on the soundpost side, there is a crack that appears to extend, at a slight angle, down into the block about a 1/2" or so. I'd hate leave it and have it be a problem for the next guy that gets it worked on. He'd likely take it to someone for other repairs and then the luthier would curse my name for not taking care of business when I had it open. I get the feeling it only takes a couple hack jobs in this business to ruin a guy's reputation, and seeing how I have no reputation, I'd rather start out with positive reviews rather than negative!

[Aren Winebrenner]

My Gilkes was about the same before it was restored and is now 36mm but in adding a Button to increase the neck stand, you have to watch the neck angle pitch and bridge height ratio. Get your 'numbers' line up correctly. 6.5" is average height for a bridge with low string height.

I need to fix a shoddy button repair on mine as well. Could you post pictures of yours, before and after. Sounds like it may be a good point of reference for me.

And yes, I'm definitely planning on paying close attention to neck angle pitch, bridge height etc. I'll get the numbers right before I ever touch a tool!

[Ken Smith]

Agreed, I would rather not make a new neck block. However, at the base of the mortise, in the corner on the soundpost side, there is a crack that appears to extend, at a slight angle, down into the block about a 1/2" or so. I'd hate leave it and have it be a problem for the next guy that gets it worked on. He'd likely take it to someone for other repairs and then the luthier would curse my name for not taking care of business when I had it open. I get the feeling it only takes a couple hack jobs in this business to ruin a guy's reputation, and seeing how I have no reputation, I'd rather start out with positive reviews rather than negative!

I meant that the Block can also be repaired as well. A small sliver of wood in the crack and then a piece under it for support possibly but then again, I am just guessing not actually able to look at the bass first hand.

[Ken Smith]

I need to fix a shoddy button repair on mine as well. Could you post pictures of yours, before and after. Sounds like it may be a good point of reference for me.

And yes, I'm definitely planning on paying close attention to neck angle pitch, bridge height etc. I'll get the numbers right before I ever touch a tool!

Sorry, by button extension I meant an addition to the neck heel to push it out over the body for a bigger overstand.

Like here, before and after;
http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/GilkesBass/147.jpghttp://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/GilkesBass/images/fullR.jpg

This Bass has a 'Back' Button Repair done about 140 years ago or so when the shoulders were cut.
http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/GilkesBass/165.jpghttp://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/GilkesBass/restoration/IMG_1662.jpghttp://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/GilkesBass/images/BKpurf.jpg

For more inside pics of the Gilkes, scroll down on the link. (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/GilkesBass/b4.htm)

[Aren Winebrenner]

Sorry, by button extension I meant an addition to the neck heel to push it out over the body for a bigger overstand.

Like here, before and after;
http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/GilkesBass/147.jpghttp://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/GilkesBass/images/fullR.jpg

This Bass has a 'Back' Button Repair done about 140 years ago or so when the shoulders were cut.
http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/GilkesBass/165.jpghttp://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/GilkesBass/restoration/IMG_1662.jpghttp://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/GilkesBass/images/BKpurf.jpg

For more inside pics of the Gilkes, scroll down on the link. (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/GilkesBass/b4.htm)

This is the plan for my bass. I haven't removed a neck from a mortise or dovetail joint yet, so this will be an execise in patience I'm thinking. I've read various things about this procedure, but having not actually witnessed it being done, I'm a bit nervous. Any tips are welcome!

Thanks for the pics by the way.

[Matthew Tucker]

TAny tips are welcome!

Many people achieve this by taking their bass through a low doorway :eek:

[Aren Winebrenner]

Many people achieve this by taking their bass through a low doorway :eek:

I hadn't even considered. This would certainly be the quickest method for neck removal!! Should I get a running start?:confused: