mystery bass?

[james zauner]

I posted this on TB a few days ago and they referred me to here, so here it goes:

well, I got this bass a few months ago, and I took it in to a few places but i have got a huge range of ideas on who made it. There is a label inside that says guadagnini, but obviously thats not correct. I will post a few pics of the bass on here. it is a very large bass (notice how high the bridge is sitting in relation to the f holes. Somehow with the high bridge, it still plays great, is loud, with an incredible tone, and a powerful low end. here are the dimensions:

Body length: 47 1/2"
Upper bout: 22 1/4"
Center bout: 15 1/2"
Lower bout: 29 3/4"

pics are too big to put on here, so go to http://s597.photobucket.com/albums/tt52/italianbass/


thanks guys!

Yes, I realize that the bridge is really high up. that was how it was when I got the instrument, and it plays fine. no sign of the top sinking or anything.

Somehow it is still a D neck, and normal string length. it is rather comfortable to play on, even in the highest positions, and harmonics. It is a wonderful bass, with a huge sound that moves the air in the room. What do you think about who would have made it from your past experience? and just out of curiosity, what size would you say it was? thanks in advance for your help

[Ken McKay]

I dunno,

Trouble is, you got a bass bar crack there and that could be a SERIOUS problem it if is not repaired correctly. The bridge should not be sitting in that position no matter who put it there, it is easy to loosen the strings and slide it into the correct position between the nicks of the ff holes. Before I would do this I would make sure the crack is solid by viewing it from the inside with a light and mirror. Nice fittings on that bass! Someone liked it.

[Ken Smith]

That is on very big bass. I have an old English Bass (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/MysteryBass/name_that_bass.htm) (attributed) and yours is even bigger. Mine was just restored and the block area cut so it's slightly smaller than before but still, yours is even bigger than mine ever was.

Please tell me what the string length is currently with your altered bridge position and if you can. lay the bass down, move the bridge to the center of the f-notches and tell me/us what the full/intended string length is. Also, what is the depth of your Ribs NOT including the Top and Back plates? Please measure them at the bottom Block, each Corner Block and up at the Neck.

For easier viewing, I will post your pics here from that link above;
http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt52/italianbass/DSC_0035.jpghttp://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt52/italianbass/DSC_0043.jpghttp://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt52/italianbass/DSC_0041.jpghttp://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt52/italianbass/DSC_0045.jpghttp://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt52/italianbass/DSC_0044.jpghttp://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt52/italianbass/DSC_0048.jpghttp://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt52/italianbass/DSC_0046.jpg

Looking at the Scroll, I see some 'fleck' in the wood at the upper turn under the extension. That looks like Beechwood. If the Scroll is original to the Bass (and that's a big IF) then I would place this Bass in central Europe, maybe!

I think people in general have narrow minds when it comes to origins. If Violin cornered, then pick Italy, France or England depending on the style of the Bass. If Gamba shaped they pics Germany, Czech or Austria. Maybe they are right some of the times but that doesn't make it fact as far as style and school of making.

There were Basses made in Spain, Portugal, Sweden, Ireland, Scotland, Belgium, Holland, Poland, Hungary etc, etc, etc..

It has a Guadagnini label? Can we look at the label? Which Guadagnini? There were several makers in the family.

Basses like yours which are quite large (not the biggest I have seen) are usually considered full sized 4/4 models. I have even heard them called 5/4 by one shop in England. Just because there are larger Basses doesn't make this less than Full sized. Some of them with Top lengths of 54-56" are 'oversized' basses like 6/5 or 8/4 in my mind, like Lumber thickness measurements.. lol

Like a Car, a Full sized is a 4-passenger sedan. A Stretch Limo that holds 12 is NOT the Full sized one knocking your down to a mere 7/8ths.. lol

I briefly played one of two Basses yesterday in NY that are labeled Giuseppe Guadagnini. The Varnish was similar to the color of yours but these were 7/8ths sized (or 4/4? depends on who you ask) Violin Cornered Basses. Only one of the two has its original Scroll. The other has a replaced German Scroll which looks nicer than the original one. The Basses are nearly twins. I don't know the exact dates from the Labels but c.1800 or so for each.

Do not rule out Italian for your Bass and equally, do not rule out several of the other countries listed above either. A careful internal examination of the Bass might help include or discard some of the origin possibilities. Some people as mentioned are just too quick and narrow minded when placing origins by style alone of a Bass.

On mine, you could ask me how did we come up with English. We have discussed it here (http://www.smithbassforums.com/showthread.php?t=415) and the bass listed here (http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/MysteryBass/name_that_bass.htm). From Europe and USA I received several possibilities but most were guesses. When the English dealers saw the pics they all, not just some but ALL said it was Northern England, 19th century. Well, I see how they came to that but the FFs are way more refined than what I have seen from the Northern area makers like Tarr from Manchester and his followers. I have seen London Basses with closer resemblance so I think it was the Gamba shape that thru the opinions 'out of town' so to speak..lol

What they didn't see or anyone else see is the inside and a close look at the Purfling of the top and scratched/painted lines in the Back. Combined, they point to 18th century London from what I have read but that's just the outside. The Corner Blocks are Northern Europe Furniture style, England and France from what I have been told. The Top Purfling shared by both countries as well. In the lower Back we see the oldest Cross bar scars of twin rails. Gamba/Violone style making. The butt of the Neck heel was attached to the current Neck and that slid down behind the 'current' non-original Neck Block which was a dovetail. That butt piece that slid down into the Back is a remnant of a Blockless neck. More evidence of the period of early English Gamba making. These are a few things that were not at all known without opening the Bass. When the dealers here in USA were trying to guess the origin, many of them said Germanic or Bohemian fro,m looking at the Dovetail alone. I currently own 3 Italian Basses that were made originally with a Dovetail Neck/Block. So there, it is NOT exclusive to Central Europe. I am sure you can find this in England as well as Blockless necks, Blockless Corners and even Cornerless in the Violins at least. Don't forget the Nails either. Even Strad nailed his Necks from the inside for extra support.

So, Gamba, Big, must be from the Tirol because you can't pin a German maker or School to it? Nahh... Think again.. open your mind. No one, not a single country in the world that made basses OWNS the Gamba design. It's public domain.

Nice Gears by the way as well. Any idea what they are? The ones on my restored English Gamba look similar but I know now who made them. It was 'Fawcett', the maker of the English C-Extensions. The Gears are about 20 years old and have been in-stock un-used all this time.

[james zauner]

there is a picture of the label. Yes, I know it has a bad bass bar crack, but it has been repaired properly. It was just restored 2 years ago. I want to say that the string length is 42, and it is 44 with the bridge moved, but I am not 100% sure. I will check it when I get back to the bass today and let you guys know. The first luthier I took the bass to said it was Italian, but the guys I got it from sweared it was German. But the weird thing is that the price they both gave me were very very close, so that is weird for a german bass being worth as much as an italian. The guys on TB sweared the bass was Tyrolean, so I'm not sure. I just want to know more about my instrument :) thanks for all of your help

[james zauner]

seems I rounded just a bit. the VSL is 41 1/4", and intended is 43 3/4". The rib depths are:

9" at the end pin block, and at the corners. it goes to 7" at the neck. anything else needed?

[Ken Smith]

seems I rounded just a bit. the VSL is 41 1/4", and intended is 43 3/4". The rib depths are:

9" at the end pin block, and at the corners. it goes to 7" at the neck. anything else needed?

Are you including the Top and Back or measuring the Ribs themselves 'between' the plates?

[james zauner]

Just the ribs. No top or back

[Jess Ting]

Lovely instrument.

Is it for sale?

Jess

[james zauner]

Sorry, at this time the bass is not for sale. It sounds too good to let it go, and I have only had it for a few months. Also, if I ever decide to sell it, the appraisal is so high that more than likely it won't get a 100% cash sale, but a bass + cash or some sort of a trade in, so I would have a very difficult time trying to sell it.

Ken- I really don't think the label is correct. It just doesn't seem to be old enough to be 1763, or it is just in really nice condition. I can see if I can get some pictures of the inside if that would help. I will move the bridge down at the end of april and see how that affects the sound and such and let you guys know. I am playing my recital on the 18th, so I don't want to move the bridge and have to relearn the instrument. Its bad enough I bought a new bass so close to my recital date. What is the interest for basses this large? I was almost hesitant to get it because of the size and concerns of it being so large. Is there much interest? Would someone be turned away from buying this instrument eventually because of the size? I have always been a fan of smaller basses just because they are easy to get around, and easy to take around, but fell in love with this one. My next bass will definitely be a small solo bass, but that is not something that will happen too soon

[Eric Hochberg]

That is a beautiful bass. If I needed a bass with a huge sound, like I imagine yours has, I would be interested although I have a personal limit of 42" for string length and I'm guessing it would be too hard to get around on for me. I don't want to have to relearn the instrument at this point.

I would think if you could get the string length down to 42" with the bridge at or slightly above the nicks, it would be more marketable. But if it's a D neck now, if the bridge was in the right spot, would it become a Db or C neck? That might be a problem in terms of having to get into TP sooner than you'd like. Seems like your target market would be large orchestral bassists!

[james zauner]

so I played in the pit orchestra for Sweeney Todd this weekend, and quite a few people came up to me after each concert and ask me if I was running through an amp. I was the only bass against the rest of the orchestra. Talk about a compliment about my instrument!