Does 17 + 23 = 40?
 

Well I gotta tell ya, I am enjoying this one thoroughly.........

Ken, I believe you are up to bat!

I'm just making friends with everybody today!
 

Mr. Hart, I'm not 100% in agreement with you... I agree with what you said about your instructor. But "I will have the same sound with every bass or bow I play with" that's not accurate... you can have one Prochownik bow, then pick up an exact same bow... and it will sound and feel different, same with the basses. The better the maker the higher the consistency, but there are still differences. That's why I say play EVERY bow you can.

Helpppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppp
 

What have we got here?

I have owned 3 Lipkins Bows (2 currently) and 2 Bultitudes recently not to mention all the others. All Bows even by the same maker sound different. I had a 12 year old kid here yesterday with his mom and dad picking out one of my Loveri Bows. He already has a C.Loveri from me and came to buy a second Bow. His was 140 grams so I pulled out 7 Loveri Bows all at 140 grams and laid them out for him to try. The mom and dad as well as the kid could hear the differences from Bow to Bow as could I. Yes, he played about the same with each Bow but some Bows just gave him more sound with his touch.

First off, is that Ruggieri a real labelled authenticated Ruggieri or just attributed to him and which member of the Ruggieri family actually made that Bass? I am just personally curious.

On the Fetique/Ruggeri combo, first off did you know that Fetique Bows are on the light side and considered by most to be more of a solo Bow than an Orchestra Bow?

Prochownick and Hudson are not top of the line Bass Bow makers. They are good but more in the middle of the field as compared to Lipkins and Fuchs.

Each stick used for a Bow will sound and feel different. The Maker cannot change what the wood will do on its own. You guys have a lot to learn yet about Basses, Bows and their differences but it's nice to see this argued in the friendly spirit of things. I just wish you would listen more and argue less. I am not trying to sell you my Lipkins or Bultitude as they are really not for sale. Just trying to tell you from my experience and all the great Basses and Bows I have played and heard played how much they differ. Also, it's not so much that someone sounds almost the same no matter what he plays as you put it but rather how that person feels about how the 'tools' in his hand feel.

I'm not sure if you read my reply, but I agreed... EVERY bow sounds different no two bows sound the same... which even further proves my statement to be correct.

Ken-

I'm not positive about whether it has a label or attributed, he always just says his Ruggieri.

I do now that a Fetique bow is considered a solo bow, but I also come from a school of playing where we believe in one sound for solo and orchestral playing. Mr. Laszlo does have heavier bows that he uses for orchestra, I'm just not sure of the name.

As for Prochownik vs. Hudson vs. Lipkins. I am a German bow player and have never been in touch with a Lipkins German bow so I can't say anything but I've heard great things. Hudson German bows are some of the best modern handmade bows, as well as some others. I do not think Prochownick is in the same class as these two makers, and as of right now it seems like there is nobody in the same class as Lipkins. I'm not getting into that argument though because that is strictly opinionated.

I definitely understand what you are saying about perceived sound. And yes I do know that every bow responds differently, but I have listened and studied with some great players and no matter whose bass or bow they use they have their own individual sound and tone. Obviously an older bass is going to be more open and you will hear more overtones than a new Chinese bass, but I still believe and will not move on the fact that sound is from the player, and the technique in which we use a bow.

Michael -

I wasn't disagreeing with you, I'm sorry I guess. But in my experience that is my opinion, I saw a thread with two people going back and forth saying the exact same thing so I thought I'd add my opinion.


Now I have a question to put out into this thread.

My teacher always taps bows and looks to see if they have a pitch. He says that if the wood of the bow vibrates with a pitch than that is not good because the bow can react with the pitch being created. I was curious about other people's thoughts on this.

Bow Pitch?
 

Everything has a Pitch! Drop a shoe on the Floor. Hit you head against the wall. Kick a tire on a car. If it has a sound at any volume that can be heard, there is a pitch there whether you can guess the note or not. Some 'knocks' might have more harmonics than others and some will sound in a monotone to the ear but everything especially a Bow, has some sort of Pitch.

I don't know what a bad pitch would sound like. Doesn't the balance and color of the sound have something to do with it as well as how well it stays on the string or plays evenly from Frog to Tip? Are you saying he can tap a Bow and tell these things? Is his Crystal Ball made from Albino Pernambuco?

On the surface that sounds good. I guess the theory is if the bow were to resonate at a particular pitch it would dampen(?) that frequency. On the other hand, isn't every stick is going to have some pitch associated with it based on its length and mass? Does he mean that the wood actually "rings" a tone?

And here are my thoughts about sound: A couple of years ago I went to a bass camp and at one of the master classes the symphony pro played my Engelhardt to demonstrate an aspect of my piece to me and though you could say his style and expertise came through, I can tell you in no uncertain terms that the instrument still sounded like crap. It was actually probably as close to sucessfully polishing a turd as I have seen.:eek:

Brett -

Please do not confuse sound with the timbre, tone and colors an instrument produce. I consider sound something much more specific to the person. The sound is the individual sound that the person produces. Obviously a better bass will have more refined overtones and produce a better timbre than an Englehardt. What I meant was that if we take two players of a very high level and have them play the same bass with the same bow, they bass will sound completely different. And that is because each player produces their own unique sound.

Ken -

The point of what my teacher says is that when your bow has an audible pitch that when you play that note on your bass the bow can vibrate because the frequencies are matched and that can have a negative effect on your playing and be very difficult to do. My teacher is known for having some crazy theories but I'm not really sure what to think about this one.

Nick,

Actually, I think knew what you meant, and I was mainly responding to this comment in one of your earlier posts as you also referenced tone separately from sound.

Semantics aside, I will certainly agree that a bassist will sound uniquely like themselves no matter what combination of instrument or bow they use.

What a fun discussion!

If I may, some terminology issues are confusing people. "Sound" means different things to different people, and although I agree with Mr. Hart, I think his term should be modified from "sound" to "player's sound" or something similar to avoid future confusion. Most of us should be using the word timbre unless we want to include articulation, dynamics, rhythm, phrasing, timbre, and frequency under the general heading of "Sound." In that case, "Sound" encompasses BOTH equipment (bass, bow, room--including furniture [like chairs, spoons, mothballs, and other people in the room], and ears) and player's sound into one big Sound.

Ha...

As for bows resonating at a frequency. Of course they do! But like every musical instrument, they have a fundamental resonating frequency and some overtones. Those overtones may or may not be in some easily identifiable mathematical happiness (like your standard resonating tube or string: 1*f + 2*f + 3*f + ... + n*f). More likely, they come in some more high-density and more random form like many percussion instruments (Bells being a crazy and cool exception because you can tune the overtones!)

Okay! So when you tap your bow against your leg (as I have a habit of doing during rehearsal) you feel it wiggle at a very low frequency: approximately 10-15 Hz... Some bows may resonate as high as 50 Hz. Our low C is approximately 32.7 Hz. It should be easy to infer that many of the frequencies the bow resonates at and the bass resonates at will overlap and create widely different timbres--canceling and augmenting certain frequencies.

Keep in mind that a huge swath of frequencies is produced when you tap-wiggle your bow or pluck a string--many of which are unrelated to the note we want to hear. The attack alone is more like 5 ms of white noise, and the bow is (ideally) constantly "attacking" the string with the hair and re-plucking it over and over--think about flicking a coin that's already twirling on your tabletop to keep it going, or spinning the carousel your kids are enjoying... that's bowing. (on a side note, now imagine the HUGE amount of effort it would take to change bow directions in a millisecond like we ask our poor basses and bows to do--much less turn the carousel in the opposite direction without your kids flying off... : P) Erm.. the point of that was that that constant "attacking" sound is always going to figure into the timbre in a pretty big way. [haha, "that was that that." I love it]

I'd love to see a study on the interactions of the two in terms of frequency. We could surely do it these days. Perhaps carbon fiber bowmakers have already done it?

Ugh, sorry about the long post... my first post, too! Hope I didn't say anything stupid....

-Trevor

Ken, I definitely appreciate your insights on finer qualities of bows, playability, etc. I also appreciate your patience with us relatively neophyte players. In my somewhat limited experience with bows, I have found nothing that contradicts anything in your posts in this thread.

As to the issue of what a better player sounds like with a lesser bow, etc., please let me interject that this is a spurious argument and somewhat off the topic. With due respect to all of Mr. Holden's comments, many of which are valid, these also are irrelevant to the issue of will a better bow help a player become a better player. It is also not really relevant that price is not always an indicator of quality. The fact is that it usually is. Sure some bows are better deals than others, but it still holds that a better bow is a bow that plays easier and these usually cost more, or will cost more when recognized by playability. It may not always be true that spending more gets a better bow, but the safer bet is that it will.

It is somewhat frustrating when someone starts bringing this price/quality issue up because it is a different issue. So is the bit about Da Vinci with a two dollar brush. If you are doing nothing but painting the bevels on a picture frame matt, a better brush works better and is easier to use. Give me a Windsor-Newton sable any day. Very similar to Jaco did it with a Jazz etc., etc. No question he would have been better off with a Smith, a Ritter, a Warwick, etc. ad infinitum. What constitutes a better bow is what Ken is trying to establish. In my experience, which is just no where close to Ken's (although I have been playing bass guitar for an awfully long time), I would have to say that I have to agree with him on all the points he has made in this thread, as well as what constitutes a better bow, and one worth paying more for. As a developing player, I should have skipped the fibreglass bow. It was a hazard. The cheapo brazilwood was a decent starter. There is no question that Ken's Loveri bows would have been much better. The custom Brunkalla is a significant upgrade (I have no idea where it stacks up against Ken's Loveris, a Lipkins, etc.) and the quality earmarks mentioned here by Ken have really helped me evaluate this bow I had on approval, particular the playability across all the hair, necessary pressure, etc. I'll never be an Edgar Meyer. So what. I play better with the better bow. I think most players will find the same.

When we talk about the bass/bow/player combination what we really mean is bass/bow/technique. The biggest improvement will be accomplished by upgrading the weakest link. In the beginning, it is obviously technique, later it is the quality of the bass, the bow, or both. Then it will shift back to technique. Then it will go back to bass or bow. Then back to technique.

A while back, it was difficult for me to understand why Ken was changing basses, exchanging bows, seemingly going all over the place with his gear. If one considers the above, it is a necessary exercise if he wants to get even better sounds from his playing. It is like sequentially distilled liquor. It just gets purer with each step.

I appreciate the discussions and all the opinions expressed, but one thing this thread would benefit from is those posting carefully considering the real relevance to the issue at hand and avoiding the more tangential debates.

Responding to the "sound of the stick" tangent: The tapping pitches of my better bow is lower than my lesser bows and it actually rings more. The wood is from different tree species, but both have a similar glassy kind of tap sound, more like a high pitched "click" than a "toong". It's such a high frequency I can't see how it would affect bass frequencies very much in any significant way. Resonance starts with the fundamental and goes up through the partials. The higher the fundamental, the higher the partials also. In the case of the tap tones of bows of any wood dense enough to make a bow, these tones are so high that only the highest upper register could even be theoretically affected, let alone noticeably affected.

This is a different "vibe" over the length of the stick that Trevor is talking about. I can see that when a bow starts sort of jumping on a certain note. It could be a big deal if the bow is too jumpy, but that is easily cured by slightly changing the tension on the hair. Of course the jump just moves to a different note. On a good bow, the jumping will not affect the sound of the note. The hair will be glued to the string and move smoothly along despite what looks like a really jumpy bow. I noticed this with bows right away and I check this on all the bows I have tried. On some note they will start jumping. I haven't tried a bow that didn't do this, but the jump note varies widely and so does the jump. Generally the higher you torque it, the less it jumps. It's due more to the frequencies of the hair than the bow tap tone.

ah.. ok...
 

David, I just read your post. I lost count on how many subjects you were addressing but I do feel sleepy..:confused:

The Jumpy stuff and tapping etc. has me confused.

I have two nearly identical Sue Lipkins Bows made only a few months apart in 2006. I recently asked her why one is brighter sounding and the other darker and broader sounding. She said it was in the wood first off and by tapping it she can get an idea what the results will be. I am waiting on my first actual custom made Bow from her after buying 4 of them within the last 3 years. One was from Sue from her last competition effort and the other 3 form various players no longer using them. The 'Competition' is the best of the 4 Bows in my opinion. All of them are great but one of them stands out for my taste.

The one she is currently making for me is actually being documented along the process for both my viewing and her website (maybe) as she mentioned that she's never photographed all the steps before in making her Bows. This will be posted on my website providing all the photos are usable. After almost 3 weeks she has just completed my Frog. It is only the second Sartory Frog she has ever made, the first being for a genuine Sartory as a replacement.

Finding any kind or particular Bow that is good or great for a cheap price does not in itself constitute it being a cheap Bow. Bows have to be judged side by side in a fair market to just their worth. On the flip side, paying a lot of money for a Bow does not necessary mean it will rate along side with other Bows of a similar price.

The better you play, the easier it will be to judge a Bow or Bass when comparing some of the finer points within either the playability or construction.

When I started back playing again I Bought 3 Basses in about 4 years upgrading slightly each time. I did a similar thing with Bows. As I got my 'chops' back gradually I started yearning for a better Bass and Bow. I think that I am now able to tell what is best for me permanently as far as a Bass or Bow goes. Maybe in a few years what I have now will not be suitable for me or maybe I will better grow into one or more of my Basses and/or Bows as my playing improves in time.

Cheap bows
 

I found a cheap German bow at school the week before last (it had a little paper sticker that said 'Korea' on it). It felt pretty nice and felt good on the battered old school bass. I though of Edgar Meyer and decided to take it home for the weekend... my personal bow is worth about $NZ2,000 and I've bowed violins since 1960 and basses since 1976 (with years off along the way). I carefully rosined up the bow and used it on my bass. I then used my own bow. I put the Korean bow away and took it back to school on Monday because my bow was a million times better. Everything Ken says in this thread is true (in my humble opinion). I would never want to take that Korean bow to a gig, yet I was happily using it to demonstrate the school bass to students a few days before (This bass is in serious need of repair - the strings are more like a high wire fence than something you're supposed to make touch the finger board!). Does a good workman blame his tools? No, but he doesn't choose a plastic hammer over a steel one. I'm no expert (Ken is, I think) but I've played for a few years now and can play most basses put in front of me. If I've got to play in public, please let it be on the best gear possible! Would Leonardo have chosen the cheapest paint brush because he liked its stroke?
Here's the answer in 'da Vinci code':
CARP!