Ken and Matthew thanks. I am leaning towards no cross bracing on the ribs whatsoever, but I must consult the three guru's of bass repair.

Ken you make a good argument for very light or no bracing. How about just 4 "crackstopper" braces from front to back positioned about equally on each side?

ah ah??
 

I yield my time on this Rib question to the two gentleman from NY, Arnold and Jeff whom I would ask if I needed such advice. Ofcourse, It costs me a few lunches here and there but hey, ones gotta eat, right?;)

Okay I will get a few photos together and ask the question, should I start a new thread or put it here or in the other cornerless thread?

Plus I don't mean to exclude anyone else, all responses are helpful.

Put it Here?
 

Well, this thread is Cornerless Italian Basses. If the shoe fits... If not, it should go in the other 'general' cornerless thread.

My grandmother was Italian, does that count?:D

Ken it appears your grandfather was Scottish, so maybe it belongs in the School of Scottish Cornerless Double Bass Bagpipes thread ...

Hi Ken,

I think you do nothing good by putting braces in the ribs of your cornerless bass. The 90 degree attachment will likely lead to rib cracks, just like at the corners of old basses where the rib shrinks and the block stays put. If you are concerned about a small rib crack developing into a "zipper" and traveling around the whole body, you can run some linen strips across the ribs about every 8-10" or so. Put them in with weak hide glue and run them up onto the linings, otherwise you'll cause a new stress point where the linen ends. My experience is that these strips remain a tiny bit flexible, and while they stop small cracks from spreading, they don't cause new ones. I have been using this technique in all my handmade basses. Old Martin guitars have similar strips I've been told.

Linen..
 

So in other words Doctor Schnitzer, 'don't throw out your old sheets'!:D:D

Gee, I wonder if I can sell them on Ebay under 'Luthier Supplies'..:confused:

Check out this Italian copy:

http://netinstruments.com/picture/?p=31377.jpg

BG

Thanks Aarnold.

That bass Brian linked to looks like a german bass with no corners. the arching looks different than any Italian I have seen. The proportions also look like a typical german gamba without corners.

Can you explain to me what looks German about it?

German?
 

The Gears look a bit French to me but the Bass, smells Italian but could be Czech or Hungarian as well if recently made.

Have any of you seen any Spanish Guitar shaped Basses before? I have been told that although this style originated in Italy, the Spanish makers made many Guitar Shaped Basses as well (probably in the 18th and 19th century). One dealer I know thinks that many of the Italian attributed Cornerless Basses are probably Spanish. A few years ago he said my Bass was Spanish way before I owned it and commented it was a great sounding Bass and had a beautiful Varnish as well. Coming from him, I take that as a thumbs up on my most recent purchase which by the way, was my biggest to date.

+1,
I am going to guess that it has something to do with the immediate but very gradual slope of the arch on the top from the edge, but I'm just guessing. Come on, give us the goods you guys. How can you tell?

The only things that I can see are

1. the bass is in germany
2. the colour looks a bit german

I can't smell it, myself.

Yes, this is why I think it is german and not italian design except cornerless of course. There appears to be no recurve in most areas and also what Matthew said about the color. Plus the general shape and proportions.
I am no expert though on identifying bass though.

in Germany?
 

There are many many English, Italian and French Basses for sale currently in German shops from all vintages. Being in Germany during the time of sale has nothing to do with the origin.

The only two countries I know of that have ever produced Guitar shaped basses was either Italy or Spain with Italy being the originator but parts of Italy were under Spanish rule at one time. Many old Spanish makers are of Italian dissent as well and many or then Violin makers there copied mainly Strad, Guadagnini, Guadagaini, Guadagnini and some Gagliano. I looked thru a Spanish Makers book yesterday at Biase's and he pointed out all these great Spanish makers and how Italian looking the fiddles were.

The Germans have copied many many Italian instruments and a few English as well. Most copies are Italian BUT with a Guitar shaped Bass bringing maybe less than the value of a Violin model Bass or even a Gamba, why on earth would the Germans make an Italian Guitar shaped copy?

It does not make sense to me and the re-curve theory or arching's, please.. there are so many styles of making that the first school we blame for oddities or quick work is usually the Italians. Very few Italian Basses have fine work matched to that of their famous Violins. Now sound, thats another story all together.

That may be true but I find it hard to believe that there is not a system for developing "italian arching" regardless of the size of the instrument. I am at a disadvantage as I have seen very few italian basses in person let alone up close enough to measure the arching. I think there were systems and secret information that were used in design of stringed instruments though that is not easy to understand in this day and age. Why would there be such a distinction between classican Italian violins and not be carried over to basses? And what explains why Italians sound good then if it is not design proportions?

Ken I guess you haven't yet figured that MOST of the time, my tongue is firmly stuck in my cheek!

What I meant was, seriously, with no other information than some wideshots taken at wierd angles, of a copy of a bass in a shop in germany, any guess as to that basses origin must surely be just that ... a guess! Especially, since its a copy. We don't even really know how old it is. The tuners and endpin give away a little about its age, but we have virtually no evidence as to its provenance other than what the ad says. Why stop at Spain or italy or Germany? Why not Canadian or British or Swedish? Why couldn't someone in Sweden make a copy of a cornerless Italian bass and sell it in Germany to an American?

Anyway ... the top looks like ply to me :D

Thought provoking indeed. I've seen a couple of different theories on how the arch was developed, but neither source offered much in "proof" and admitted that. There were various mechanical methods using rolling drawing aids. My own theory is that the arch needs to be a sine wave section. Intuitively it seems like a deep recurve would aid in resonance.

Thanks for your explanation on the German personality of the arching.

Probably a compass was used to develop the curves and recurves of these old basses and de gambas. Some old de gamba instruments have no recurve at all while the violin shaped instruments do. And there is a difference in tone but some de gambas were converted to cellos and basses.

I am really just collecting info on plate arching but will keep you posted. there seems to be a method that is emerging in my mind that was common to classical Italian makers. I am no expert and don't have a bunch of old italian basses to study, so take that for what it for what it is worth. I will write more as I get info.