Ken's secret sauce
 

Hi Ken,

No need to tell you how much I appreciate your art of making basses.
I have a question concerning the finish of your basses either satin or high gloss.
I would like to hear the story of how have you arrived to find these finishes and the impact they have tone wise on Smith basses.
So please tell us about your "Secret Sauce".

Best regards

please tell us about your "Secret Sauce"?
 

Hey, if I tell you, it wont be a secret anymore, will it!.. :p;)

"Loose lips sink ships":eek::eek::(:(:o:o

Oh yes, I understand... The Secret Syndrome.
For sure is not the secret formula that I wanted, but just your history as a high end electric bass luthier.

Best regards

humm,.. oh... ok..
 

Trial and error with various formulas available and mixing a few of them as well for the right ah.. flavor...;)

Nice, like the ancient alchemists you transform the warnish into gold.
I am sure the bass history will remember and will pay respect to this.

Best regards

Ken you need to do this book it would be great

Lou

+1 for a wonderfull book with lot of pics and history to our favori brand :)

I order one copy

frédéric : 1 :D

ok, ok..
 

I order 10 copies..:)

Where do I order them? Who's writing this book??:confused:

:D:D:D

If you can speak to us the story of the john patitucci collaboration ken.

I remember the first time i saw a Ken Smith bass...

It's on John Patitucci eponyme album, it was in 1988 :rolleyes:

What a sound ! terrific !

conception of the burner series
 

Hi Ken,

Not sure if this quite fits in this History of KSB forum but i think it would be interesting to hear about it and it does seem like a pretty significant part of the KSB past.

Can you talk about what lead up to the conception and development of the original Burner Series and how the process unfolded?

How were you able to maintain such excellent quality control with a large part of the building process happening half way around the world - it seems like other instrument manufacturer's can't duplicate what you were able to do when they cross the water.

Thanks!

Larry Elwood

ok..
 

What let up to it was seeing all of the Asian copies of American Basses. I was at the Frankfurt show in Germany in March of 1989 sharing space as a guest with Jim Dunlop. His good friend and mine now, Toshio Moridaira, owner and founder of MMI (Moridaira Musical Instruments) in Japan and also owner and founder of Morris Guitars. A maker and subcontractor that had made for many famous companies. In Japan, Morris is a famous brand as well. I witnessed that a month later when I went to Japan.. I will get to that.

I asked Toshio (I played golf with both these guys, Jim and Toshio) to walk with me to look at some basses from Japanese companies. One of them offered to make basses for me but then Toshio told me "they are not factory, only trading company". It was that walk on the show floor that opened my eyes as to how things are done. He then became my mentor instantly. He offered to make basses for me as his factory could do the job. A week later when back in New York I sent them a BT neck thru to copy as a bolt-on. The following month in April I flew to 'Frisco to meet with him at his Cali' house and play a little golf with him and Dunlop of course and then off to Japan for business. They were not quite done with the sample when I arrived but we finished it there at the Morris plant in or near Nagano.

The head maker could make Violins, Acoustic Guitars and even Banjos by hand. He was a real Luthier. He said in Japanese that HE must handmake the Artist Model himself and the other models Custom, Deluxe and Standard can be thru normal production. He was clear about that in not such a nice way BUT, he wanted the credit at home for being the Luthier he was. The bass that Hadrien Feraud plays is the Artist model Burner!

This was the start. That sample was an Artist model and we still own it. My son Jon had been playing that same bass since he was 4 years old. He is turning 22 this year. They made 6 more basses for the June Summer NAMM that year in 1989 as samples and then we made the first 3 runs of 40 basses, 40 basses and then 80 basses the third run and finally caught up with the orders from that first show. We had 5 left in stock after producing 166 basses.

Being a personal friend of the owner helps. One day in Tokyo on that trip he walked me around town to some stores. We walked into a Guitar store and the sales girl greeted us like customers, took a second look at Toshio and HIT THE FLOOR bowing to him as if God had just walked in.:eek: No Joke. I once saw a head of one of the most famous Japanese brand Guitar companies do almost the same thing in the lobby of the Nashville Convention Center one evening just after 6pm as we were all leaving. This guy (a famous Japanese CEO) was bowing and bowing and bowing as if asking for forgiveness..

My contact in Japan is a Powerful person in this business. I have nothing but respect for him as he started with nothing and built an empire in his own life time. While touring his factory he showed me his old office, now empty. He said "Ken San, (that's what he calls me) if you move to Japan, this can be your office".

Staying at his house with him and his wife and later meeting all 3 of his grown children (2 sons and a daughter) as well as being invited to his Daughters wedding Reception at a Namm show private party tells me he respects me as well.

So, it's not all business. It's people too. Gotta have people. We can't do without them. He taught me about business "first you give trust, and then you get trust". I taught him something we say when asked how things are.. "so far, so good". He loves that saying. He taught me a few words in Japanese as well while I was there. ;)

Ken,

Wow! Thanks! What a fantastic story. I get it- the level of quality, care and respect that went into those burners... And on a side note - I'm ultra stoked now because only a couple of days ago I acquired beautiful walnut/mahogany/maple 1991 Artist burner 4 string that is in superb shape. Now I know it's back story too!

amazing...

Also....
 

Ken, you also performed final set-up on the Burner's as well, correct?

yes...
 

That is correct. We also installed all of the Electronics as well from late 1992 and on. Top woods for all Artist models and the maple and walnut for the Customs were supplied by us as well. We also supplied the fingerboards after 1992 with Morado instead of rosewood during the first few years.

ok..
 

It was different than usual. Chick Corea called me up to tell me about his new bassist to be and that he wanted a Smith Bass. I knew Chick thru Stanley Clarke and even got to play with Chick one day so he had my number. He asked that I help this new young player to get the bass he was looking for.

John came over shortly after and tried a Maple 6-string with gold hardware. He was still on the road with Dave Sanborn and had to finish that tour up before starting with Chick. He said if this one sells he would get the next one which I had in production. It was Walnut and maple with Chrome Hardware. We made so few 6s back then and had only that one bridge for a 6 in stock put aside for the 2nd bass, the walnut. Both with our Oil finish we used then.

Shortly after, he called and the first maple bass was sold so he bought the 2nd one, the walnut, sight unseen. The rest is history I guess. People tell me he never sounded better than when he played his Smith 6. The model was a BT back then like today's oil finished neck thrus, GN/BT and Black Tiger models.

I think these basses then sold for under $3k. He paid the regular asking price but did get to reserve the bass while he was out on the road.

And what a great history !

I'm totaly agree with myself :D

The wonderfull, marvelous, smooth, full and precis sound when he played a KSB miss me a lot.

I can say it, I don't like the sound that it had when it changed instrument but i'm not rancorous, i'm a big fan of his work ;)

Thanks for this piece of history ken.

Cool!
 

That's some cool history there. :)

As for final set-up, etc.: I think this was a critical phase of production that contributed greatly to the Burner's success.

Hey Ken,

Can you talk about your companies relationship with Anthony Jackson and John Pattitucci?

well..
 

That's past history. Both went on to a different company that needed their name and were possibly paid to use their product in either cash, instruments, royalties, paid clinics or some or all of the above. I think..;)

Don't quote me on it. Just use your imagination.

Ask them directly if you can and good luck on getting a straight answer or a truthful one for that matter.

We don't do endorsements like that and we never chase players down to use their names or buy our products. They either come to us or they don't. I'm just not that good of a hustler or one at all.

Both players paid the normal asking price for their Smith Basses and services but got a discount on strings which were bought in fairly healthy quantities.

Changes
 

Ken,

Can you comment on how much the Internet and technology advances changed your business and the bass making process itself over the past years? Thank you.

humm..
 

Business, yes. Making process, I would say not directly.

Remember that when I started we didn't even have cell phones yet. I learned how to balance a checkbook before we had personal calculators.

I have on my wall a 1985 5-string, one of the last NY Basses. Other than some dimension changes and model differences we still make them the same. We do have some improved processes mostly by choice but try improving on a 200 year old or more Violin, Cello or Double Bass!

It still takes hands and patience. If anything, modern tecnology has hurt quality hand made work. Too many machines with no eyes or feelings. Just shapes cut out with no soul in them.

Business wise with the Internet I have saved a ton on advertising for one. Second, I can make updates to the world in a flash of time.
Third, what's a catalog again?..:confused:

Email in itself has improved and sped up communications faster than I would have ever imagined. When I was getting my first Fax machine around 1989 I was told that electronic mail (email) would be the next thing coming to the world and make faxing almost obsolete. I had no idea at that time what they were referring to?
Put a mini preamp under the stamp on a letter??? huh?:confused:


Anyone know what a Typewriter is? I have one for sale.. :rolleyes:

The world is a smaller place now but two things that will never go out is 'hands-on' and 'word of mouth'. A product needs to almost sell itself with some basic explanation. You can't hard sell quality. Either you understand what you are looking at or you don't.

Just like 'Electronic Mail' when I first heard the term. You couldn't sell it to me if you were paying me because I have no clue what it was.
---------------------------------------------------------------
By the way, I was moving some wood around downstairs in the storage area yesterday and within these tiger maple blocks I bought over 10 years ago I found some beautiful highly flamed Tiger blocks for the BT model as far as the length goes. So, we might make a special model soon to use this stuff.

"The BT Vintage White Tiger Elite" (TBVE). Exhibition grade Tiger Top and high figure backs, Quilted Maple Cores (12-18 year old stock), 12-18 year aged Walnut body features and sawn Walnut laminates, Ebony Head Cap, high figure Tiger/Shedua Heel cap neck-thru on back, Abalone inlaid top and side Dots and Logo (ala 25th), Maple/Shedua 5pc Neck, all the electronics of the Elite (at least) and.. The strap buttons, maybe Dual for longer strap hang (or flush on request). Basically the works on a 5pc body and neck like the first 25th models were.

Interested? Any takers?

We have longer BSR length Blocks as well but thought we would kick off this series with the older BT shape.

I would be glad to hear your comments or answer your questions on this.

Sounds nice,

I still have some questions:
- Will this be a limited edition, if yes how many pieces approx?
- Will be this edition crafted in 4,5 & 6 strings?
- Which is the price evaluation?
- Only 5/5 or also a possibility of 7/7 ?(as in my personal opinion the 7/7 sound definition is more precise and also offers to this BT model a beautiful ageless upper class status)
- When is it supposed to happen?

Anyway in case this will be a limited edition, please put me first on your list for the no.1 of the 6 strings model.

Best regards

well..
 

- Will this be a limited edition?.. Not sure yet. We have plenty of wood..

- Will be this edition crafted in 4,5 & 6 strings?.. Yes

- Which is the price evaluation?....... Not totally sure but similar to the Black Tiger Elite which is Elite$ plus Exhibition wood$

- Only 5/5 or also a possibility of 7/7 ?... For 7/7 I would move it to the 25th model and just go all the way.

- When is it supposed to happen?... We usually do stock bass making in the Summer when we are not so busy. I will make a group of 5s first most likely.

Ok, got it, but, in case of choosing a 25th, it will not be a BT6 model right, or...
Best regards

well..
 

You can basically ala a carte the bass and let it fall into whatever model it's closest to.

The main thing mentioned here was these few 5a blocks I found that are too short for BSRs so I will make some special BT models with them. White Tiger is a name we have used before in Japan for similar basses sold there.

Ok, thanks,

Can't wait to see the result in 5s and also in 6s.(I think you will post the information as soon as you will have a planning).
For sure I was waiting for a more exclusive high flyer "limited edition" of this Vintage BT beauty model :rolleyes: but even like this I think this is a refreshing new.
Maybe later, I hope.

For the moment, what about the typewriter? - lol!

Best regards

Hi Ken and friends!

Ken, your basses are one of the finest things in the world. Building 5-string, 6-string and 7-string basses with stability and robustness certainly isn't an easy task for any builder, and among them you are not a follower but a leader, as you say. :rolleyes:
:confused: My question: have you ever tried before with less strings, let's say 3-string or even 2-strings basses? (I've already seen some before and they are tuned by 5ths, and not by 4ths a regular bass... well, you can tune the way you want, but...).
Was there any idea that you decided to abandon because it was too 'weird'?(like this one) ;)

(I still keep my typewriter too and I think you should do the same. We never know when anybody will come with a 'USB to Old Typewriter' stuff. Maybe Mike? He's the computer geek here, isn't he?;) In the mean time, I keep mine oiled and ready! :D )

Thanks,

2 or 3 string?
 

In the history of the Double Bass, 3-string was quite common around the world from the 17th - 19th centuries before the 4-string slowly became the standard in the early 20th century. It went to 4-string for a reason. They needed the notes. Playing in 5ths was also tried, and then abandoned. There are a few that play in 5ths now but the normal is 4-string in 4ths. It is hard enough to play as it is now so I don't plan on making any bass with less than 4-strings and tuned in 4ths. I am a player first and I design from experience, not bad dreams..:eek:

Just out of curiosity, would you describe, in each 100 basses made, how many percent are 4-string, 5, 6 and 7?

Can I?
 

Can I or will I?:confused:

More 5s than 6s but some years it's close. About 60/40 on average.

In the last 20 years or so the 4s average from 10% on the low end to 20% at the highest.

The 7s number only 49 to date in total. That is less than 3 a year since we made the first so that model is not in the mix. We make them when we have orders. We only make the 7s in the Elite version.

Would you
 

Thanks for correcting me
Unlike wine or your basses, it seems that my English is not improving over time ;) my bad
Hope you understand

oh?
 

It wasn't a correction of your wording. I meant that to answer you I have to go back and count them to figure this it. It so happens that earlier today I counted the last 12 months of sales for next years projections and had it handy on my desk. The 7s I have a list of all by themselves. If not I would have answered 10/50/38/2% from 4 to 7 and left it at that. I just got back from a gig and came in to drop off my bass so I am quite tired and have to get back in early tomorrow. It's now or whenever with an answer like that..;)

2 over 3...
 

Ken,

What was your reasoning behind the 2 over 3 peg-head design?

Tim B.

humm..
 

In my mind, it comes from double basses starting sometime in the 19th century. The lower gears moved up a slot and the higher ones down. I see this from France a lot and partly from Germany. The theory I believe is that the thicker or thickest strings needs more after-length and decreased break-over angle.

German examples both ways; http://www.kensmithbasses.com/double...roll-front.jpghttp://www.kensmithbasses.com/double...lmann01_12.jpg

French examples both ways; http://www.kensmithbasses.com/double...vuillaume8.jpghttp://www.kensmithbasses.com/double...roll-right.jpg

Also, I had some requests for the reverse gears on the 5s from my Distributor in Japan and then put it on the 25th models. Soon after I made it standard. You can still order a bass with the older 3/2 configuration.

Interesting...
 

Interesting. With the 2/3, do you think there is a better distribution of tension across the nut and neck/fretboard?

??
 

I don't know. I never measured it. ;)

How have neck shapes changed over the years in terms of spacing and profile (if at all)?

Also, your basses have a very unique tone. What influenced your pursuit of this sound? Yes, they are capable of a wide variety of sounds, but they always sound like a Smith bass.

How have neck shapes changed over the years in terms of spacing and profile (if at all)?.. Slightly as you can see if you look at basses 5, 10, 15, 20, 25 and 30 years old. Sometimes it's the wood, the carver, the design. Too broad of a question to really answers because of the variables involved. No two necks are 100% alike. They are made by hand. Spacing however is done with the Nut and Bridge. That stays the same but different periods in the beggining we had somewhat of a learning curve to go through.

What influenced your pursuit of this sound?.. Playing a 300 year old Italian Bass that was superior in its class inspired me to find its mate in an Electric bass. I ended up starting this company to do so. The rest is history.

Compliments to Ken for making this thread a thoroughly enjoyable read. You pretty much covered all the facts and myths between yourself and Mr. Fodera. I would like to add that your basses were and still is basses of my dreams.
Having only being able to afford second hand beauties, which are a 1997 BSR6P and a 2002 BSR5EG, I hope to someday own one that would be of my specification with your guidance of course.
You're truly one of the bass building pioneers that has influence many of your contemporary both old school and new. Of all the builders, who of them would you respect the most, both professionally and personally?

I'm much honored to have played your masterpieces through my years of playing bass and I wish you continued success.