Originally Posted by Thomas Erickson (Post 21035)

You have long way to go 'til you need a fingerboard! Worry about the rest of the bass first!

Originally Posted by Ruben E garcia (Post 21064)

hi Thomas, I got you... by the way what u think about the repairs?

Originally Posted by Arnold Schnitzer (Post 21081)

Ruben, with all due respect, next time you remove a bass top please be more patient, and get some more advice about doing so less destructively.

Originally Posted by Steve Alcott (Post 21188)

Have a look at Matthew Tucker's French Bass restoration thread-that's what good repair looks like. Notice the lack of glue globs, the obsessive neatness of the cleat placement and trimming, etc. His post is a textbook on how to do it right, as is the "restoration" section on his website.

Originally Posted by Ken Smith (Post 21189)

I have several restoration photos on my website of some famous instruments in restoration. Not a blow by blow but a gook look inside some very expensive basses, $50-$150k grade.

Matthew's work looks very nice but the more you see, the more you learn from. These two links here are master grade basses restored by one of the best that does work for all of the major New York Orchestras and 100k basses are common in this shop daily.

One, and Two.

I have 100s of restoration photos in my files from other master grade basses of mine and other basses worked on as well but I generally keep them private as they would scare most players. Like seeing a body opened up and then a year later the guy jogging. Once when having a root c**** and fitting at the dentist I had to take a bathroom break as this was going for hours. The dentist said "DON'T look in the Mirror!!" After washing my hands I looked up..:eek::eek::eek: .. Now I knew why he said that..

Post restoration photos are mush prettier to look at unless your are an experienced Emergency room attendee..;)

Originally Posted by Ruben E garcia (Post 21192)

Thank you Ken, So mine have to look like those after I done with it ?

PS I have a good Idea of what to do by now, I am planning on practicing the procedure before I get to that bass

Originally Posted by Ruben E garcia (Post 21552)

So I didnt have super long clamps that can reach deep into the top, so
I used Rare earth magnets.... :) I did work perfectly
http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/t...6/100_4402.jpg


All the cleats, square shape at 45% Grain angle

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/t...6/100_4404.jpg


Chisel down (super sharp chisels :) ), Scraped and Sanded....

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/t...6/100_4406.jpg

Final Result... They look good to me... I dont know about you guys

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/t...6/100_4407.jpg



http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/t...100_4408-1.jpg



Couple notes....
I spoke to one of the local luthiers and he said that the old crack by the sound post looks sound... he recommended to ad a cleat in the north section of the crack and not to do a inlay patch... at least for now....
as for the lost of wood on the edges he suggest that an easy way to fix it is to use Wood epoxy.... I dont know anything about wood epoxy, sound scare sense ones the epoxy sets, I dont think I will be able to get it out in the case of a mistake.... could I use Hide glue for it, hummm...... i dont know if Hide G will build up or if it may react when I glue the top back????? :confused:... it need to study the case in deep

Originally Posted by Ken Smith (Post 21553)

Step AWAY from that Luthier before he teaches you how to Ruin this bass.:mad:

It needs a sound post patch and the edges at least repaired with wood if not a full around half edging. I don't know who this guy is but it sounds like he can kill a good bass easily with his ideas..

NEVER Epoxy.:mad:

Never open up a bass and do half the work to 'see' it it holds. Do the proper sound post patch as it does need it.

Originally Posted by wayne holmes (Post 21555)

Hi Ruben, I applaud your efforts. Ken makes some very good points.

I often think of my bass fishing mentor who said to me "if you want to become good at the sport of bass-fishing and really enjoy it, then you have to get the right equipment"

One thing that I have learned listening to Ken, Arnold, and all those who have been successful in luthiery is that you have to have the right tools.

As I say, I commend you for your efforts. I have not been doing luthiery work all that many years, but I am probably one of the oldest OFs on this forum and know aspiration and passion when I see it. I want to encourage you to get the tools that you need that will help you do the work that will better match your desire to do good work.

As creative as the magnets are, they have not done the job, IMO. You can see in the first pictures that the cleats don't fit the surface of the bass top as they should.

I recommend that you stop everything, remove the cleats, get the right clamps and start all over. And, I recommend, as I did once before, that you seek help before you attempt anything. When you tell us what you are going to do, then we can tell you what tools you will need and will tell you how to do it. You have also received books that show you how to do repairs and the tools needed.

I have to be perfectly honest with you Ruben. You have, at your request, the help that you need. However, if there is one common error in your approach to luthiery that has once again surfaced, you are not paying enough attention to the guidance given you.

Yes, given what you have used to accomplish the cleating, they do look sorta good, but you can do better work and cleaner work. So, stop everything, get the right tools and step by step instruction and do it right- you'll be glad that you did.

The clamps that you need are expensive, but you can make some for just a few dollars.

Before you install the soundpost patch, it will be important that you get all the cracks repaired correctly. Also, if you plan to replace the bassbar, the top needs to be in good shape first to include a proper reshaping in most cases.

Ruben, what you are attempting to do here is work on an instrument that is usually done by an experienced bass luthier.
This is not to say that you can't do it, but an experienced bass luthier is going to have the tools and equipment before he/she will attempt this kind of work. Many of us have had to learn this the hard way. The hard way is what you are doing now and this is the reason I am asking you to stop everything, get the right tools and equipment and begin again.

An example for what I am trying to say- Why is it that good bass luthiers can repair a crack to where you can't see it? They get the result because they have the right tools and equipment. They, also, have listened to their mentor's instructions on how to do the repair correctly.

Ruben, Hope this helps. Good luck.

wayne


wholmesbassviol@yahoo.com
www.holmesbassviol.com

Originally Posted by Arnold Schnitzer (Post 21566)

Consider also that lining up straight-edged cleats along a grain line can create a new fault line, resulting in a crack the next time the instrument is under excessive stress. Most current luthiers use diamond-shaped cleats because there is less strength at the grain line. Also, I believe yours are too far apart. Good on you for taking the criticism with an open mind and heart.

Originally Posted by Ruben E garcia (Post 21568)

I have no idea that This particular type a cleats can cause later on some problems.... I am using Chuck book and he present few options and I just when for this one, that it happens to be his style... my cleats are spacing about tree inches apart but there is one 3 and 3/4, he also said that Bill merchant think that 2" and even 3" spacing is over kill. that cleats should be 4 to 6 inches apart.... now if I may ask you. what would be the optimum space between cleats.... lets say that I do Diamond cleats of 5/8" x 1"...

Thank for looking out after me... its hard but it need to be done the right way... and its a good experience... I just need to take a deep breath and take off all my beautiful cleats :(

Originally Posted by Arnold Schnitzer (Post 21575)

Reasons why I believe diamond cleats are superior:

1) Grain crosses at a 30-40 degree angle, rather than 90 degrees, therefore less tendency to come loose from seasonal wood movement.

2) Much longer reinforcement per cleat; less cleats required.

3) Less stiffening, due to the shape and the way the edges are tapered.

4) Looks really pretty.

Of course square cleats have been used for centuries (as have diamonds), and they work ok. I just personally think diamonds are better, especially if the owner is female. (Private joke for Wayne)

Originally Posted by Ken Smith (Post 21571)

Chuck's book is a book, not THE Bible on repairs. I do not agree with everything he says in that book about repairs and I do not want any of my basses repaired in that way. Just because it's written doesn't make it true! Follow what Arnold tells you, and for very good reasons.

I have seen more basses inside and out than most people and have seen along with that many styles of repair and modification. Fit all patches and pieces 100% dry before gluing and clamping them in. For me, I would rip out everything you have done and start over fresh and do it correctly. Just don't make things worse by damaging the bass while removing your recent work. Like Wayne said, you need the tools in hand before you start. In my opinion, this was a huge undertaking as your first project in bass repair. Did I say Undertaking? Sounds similar to Undertaker, the one who buries the dead. Don't kill your bass!

When I buy basses or take them in trade, one of the things I ask is who did the previous repairs on the bass. Depending on who, it might cost double or triple to re-repair everything or I might just refuse to deal with a particular bass if I feel it's too far gone. I don't always see everything in advance but I sure try to. Do not become one of the repair people that makes it on the 'blacklist' of luthiers and basses worker on by to avoid. We have enough of them already. Most of them in my book. Like the guy who advised you to use wood epoxy? Geeze.. Talk to the young luthier Jed Kriegel who just spent a year picking junk glue like this out of an old bass which became one of the major parts of the restoration. It shouldn't have as that glue does not belong within a mile of any bass. Have fun..;)

Originally Posted by Arnold Schnitzer (Post 21575)

Reasons why I believe diamond cleats are superior:

1) Grain crosses at a 30-40 degree angle, rather than 90 degrees, therefore less tendency to come loose from seasonal wood movement.

2) Much longer reinforcement per cleat; less cleats required.

3) Less stiffening, due to the shape and the way the edges are tapered.

4) Looks really pretty.

Of course square cleats have been used for centuries (as have diamonds), and they work ok. I just personally think diamonds are better, especially if the owner is female. (Private joke for Wayne)

Originally Posted by Adrian Levi (Post 21580)

is there a reason why linen pieces are not used solely for cleating . I've seen firsthand how a misplaced (in perfect line with the grain) and much too long piece of linen can split a top up due to its shrinkage after gluing,meaning that its not weak stuff ?

I have always wondered about the diamond shape verses the square shaped cleats. That is until I heard about a test that was done by some Austrian college students using two identical tops. On one top two rolls of diamond shaped cleats where glued and the other had larger and thinner square shaped cleats. Adding vibration to the two in equal amounts, the square cleated top continued to vibrate 4 to 6 seconds longer than the diamond one consistantly over several experiments. Fine wood dust was spread around the edges of each top and again vibration was applied to the tops. The thin square cleated ones produced a more even and smoother and a bit faster movement of the dust when ****yzed. I would give serious consideration to the thinner and larger square cleats- just thought I would share that for what it's worth.

Originally Posted by wayne holmes (Post 21555)

Hi Ruben, I applaud your efforts. Ken makes some very good points.

I often think of my bass fishing mentor who said to me "if you want to become good at the sport of bass-fishing and really enjoy it, then you have to get the right equipment"

One thing that I have learned listening to Ken, Arnold, and all those who have been successful in luthiery is that you have to have the right tools.

As I say, I commend you for your efforts. I have not been doing luthiery work all that many years, but I am probably one of the oldest OFs on this forum and know aspiration and passion when I see it. I want to encourage you to get the tools that you need that will help you do the work that will better match your desire to do good work.

As creative as the magnets are, they have not done the job, IMO. You can see in the first pictures that the cleats don't fit the surface of the bass top as they should.

I recommend that you stop everything, remove the cleats, get the right clamps and start all over. And, I recommend, as I did once before, that you seek help before you attempt anything. When you tell us what you are going to do, then we can tell you what tools you will need and will tell you how to do it. You have also received books that show you how to do repairs and the tools needed.

I have to be perfectly honest with you Ruben. You have, at your request, the help that you need. However, if there is one common error in your approach to luthiery that has once again surfaced, you are not paying enough attention to the guidance given you.

Yes, given what you have used to accomplish the cleating, they do look sorta good, but you can do better work and cleaner work. So, stop everything, get the right tools and step by step instruction and do it right- you'll be glad that you did.

The clamps that you need are expensive, but you can make some for just a few dollars.

Before you install the soundpost patch, it will be important that you get all the cracks repaired correctly. Also, if you plan to replace the bassbar, the top needs to be in good shape first to include a proper reshaping in most cases.

Ruben, what you are attempting to do here is work on an instrument that is usually done by an experienced bass luthier.
This is not to say that you can't do it, but an experienced bass luthier is going to have the tools and equipment before he/she will attempt this kind of work. Many of us have had to learn this the hard way. The hard way is what you are doing now and this is the reason I am asking you to stop everything, get the right tools and equipment and begin again.

An example for what I am trying to say- Why is it that good bass luthiers can repair a crack to where you can't see it? They get the result because they have the right tools and equipment. They, also, have listened to their mentor's instructions on how to do the repair correctly.

Ruben, Hope this helps. Good luck.

wayne


wholmesbassviol@yahoo.com
www.holmesbassviol.com

Originally Posted by wayne holmes (Post 21587)

... make sure to get a good fit- use sandpaper under the cleat to get the cleat to match the top surface or you could lipstick or chulk it.

Originally Posted by Adrian Levi (Post 21580)

... two identical tops ...

Originally Posted by Matthew Tucker (Post 21590)

Well, before anyone gets excited about the Austrian research, they better read it first and then make up their own mind. Gotta link or is it hearsay?

Originally Posted by Arnold Schnitzer (Post 21600)

Oh, and Diamonds Are a Girl's Best Friend...:D

(sexist and dated--sue me)

Originally Posted by Thomas Erickson (Post 21611)

If the crack in question isn't closed up ship-shape, no cleat is going to get it there - you have to do your recon and complete the mission before you call in the airstrike, yeah? Cleats don't repair basses - they just help keep them together... ;)

Originally Posted by Ken Smith (Post 21604)

We can share a 'Cell' on that one..:D:D

And, Diamonds ARE Forever! Trust me, I did the Gig with her, twice!!;)

Originally Posted by Richard Prowse (Post 21626)

Ah, Ken, I love Shirley Bassey!!!
I grew up listening to her. She's in a class of her own!
I wish I'd been there on those gigs. Why didn't you call me at the time?

Originally Posted by Ken Smith (Post 21627)

They were in NY in the late '70s/early 80s. If she calls me next week, I still wont call you.. lol

A job is a job.. right?