Its a better shape, but to my taste, the lower bout still looks odd, I'd let the bottom block spring out a bit so the bottom isn't so flat. otherwise it gives the impression of weight squashing down. I don't mind the small upper bout but the lower bout looks too squished. A little more curve in that area will give that lower lower bout area a bit more structural strength too.

I agree with your opinion that the 44" string length of Kens bass is likely to be a BIG factor in its great sound as well. That does not diminish its other qualities, of course.

Okay Matthew I am going to play with that a bit and see what I come up with.

44" length..
 

I have put wood under the string and experimented with 42" and there was not much loss of sound. It tightened up a bit but this has so much bottom, no one will miss the difference.

I don't think Ruggeri or Roggeri would make a Bass that looks so primitive. These guys were some of the neatest makers ever. i think sometimes people pull names out of a hat to make the Bass something it is not. On mine being a Storioni, it is only attributed to that name and I am equally doubtful it is his work.

The upper bout is crucial in the tone and depth of the Bass as is the middle bout. The middle bout has to reach the limit to where bowing is comfortable but the more you give it, the wider and deeper the sound will be.

Regarding the Ruggeri attributed bass. Have you ever seen a Ruggeri scroll? they are better than Strad! That bass does not have a Ruggeri scroll. I am glad to see you write that.

I am sure you are right about the width issues also.


Have another look, I took Matthew's suggestion. http://www.upnorthstrings.com/cornerlessbasspage4.html Looks better doesn't it.

Suggestions..
 

Yes, I see his idea there. The whole thing must be in harmony including the graduations, Arch and wood species.

Why does one Bass sound better than another? Why can't they make it just as good each time?

Does the words 'luck' and educated guess' mean anything? Yes, I think so but to what degree, THAT is the question..lol

yeah better! Imagine the bottom bracket is the bumcrack :eek: ... much more shapely now! LOL!

Ken M.-

That is the ticket! Build away!:)

Just a quick note and link to my progress. I have decided on the f hole design, it will be Gasparo da Salo style and the arching scheme is going to be Brescian style to go along with that. http://www.upnorthstrings.com/cornerlessbasspage6.

Thanks for you interest.

I like the style and width but to my eye they are still sitting a bit high, for balance I'd experiment with dropping them about half an inch or an inch, so that they "hang" into the lower bout rather than sitting above it. This is purely a looks thing for me.

Problem with doing that is your string length may be longer, depending on where your nicks end up.

Your outline is looking nice!

body stop:neck length
 

I would be able to move the f down about an inch and have the string length be 42.25. A lot of players will feel pretty comfortable playing it at that mensure.

By the way, Nick Lloyd wrote about a way to get mensure from body stop and neck length. For a bass I have here, it works out if I use:

1) neck length = from nut to where the neck joins the body.
2) body stop = top of bass (where neck and rib meet) to f nick-line.

Are 1 and 2 correct? Anyone know? where's Nick?


Did you look at the next page http://www.upnorthstrings.com/cornerlessbasspage7 where I started carving the plate.

Good to see it taking shape. I can see how you are getting the barrel arch. In fact, I started out trying to get the barrel shape on my bass because that's what the arching looked like in the photos. Then I thought that maybe the barrel was showing as a result of the top collapsing in the centre of the long arch over time. So then I modified it to a continuous long arch.

But the arching pattern on the plans Chandler drew up showed a long flat in the middle of the long arch, slightly higher on the lower bout than the upper bout.

I notice you're carving along the grain all the way around. I found it easier to carve in a radial pattern, meaning across the grain in the centre.

42.25??
 

As a rule most Makers and Restorers stay within the 41-42" range these days. 42.25" String length can make it harder to sell down the road.

[quote=Ken McKay;2692]I would be able to move the f down about an inch and have the string length be 42.25. A lot of players will feel pretty comfortable playing it at that mensure.

By the way, Nick Lloyd wrote about a way to get mensure from body stop and neck length. For a bass I have here, it works out if I use:

1) neck length = from nut to where the neck joins the body.
2) body stop = top of bass (where neck and rib meet) to f nick-line.

Are 1 and 2 correct? Anyone know? where's Nick?


Neck length plus stop length plus 1" equals string length. This formula will get you very close, assuming typical bridge installation angle.

I will try to stay less than 42 inches mensure. :cool:

Arnold, if I use +1 inch fudge factor, I get very close, thanks.:cool:

Matthew, Keep in mind that the long arch from top to bottom is almost perfect from the planer and since my wood started as pie shaped wedges, there is less roughing to be done compared to your 2 inch thick cedar. I get no tear out if I carve up, bottom to top, on the bass side and down on the treble, it is just the way this spruce wants to be carved, so I go with the grain to stay perfectly in control, and every gouge stroke leaves a shiny surface behind. :cool:

I will establish the flat perimeter next at a perfect thickness + 1/2 mm. Then my next tool is going to be a plane, to round the flat area into the generously arched barrel shape. Then a series of sharp gouges that match the recurve will be used to blend the two, then scraper. :cool:

As always, thanks for the comments and help.

I carved some more today and got this far.

Edges..
 

I have noticed that in proportion, my Bass and some other Cornerless Basses have thicker edges which might be for protection. This may help it over time from having to be re-edged during Top repairs.

http://www.kensmithbasses.com/Double...de_detail2.jpghttp://www.kensmithbasses.com/Double...ide_detail.jpg

How wide are those bottom ribs Ken? they look DEEEEP!

http://www.upnorthstrings.com/040107-1.jpg

When I made my purfling I resolved to try a flexible glue like PVA next time as the hide glue was just too brittle.

But why would this be a feature of cornerless basses?

I would have thought regular basses would have the same if not more issues with edge repairs with all those corners to catch on things.

Edges and such..
 

A Bass with 6 separate Ribs and 4 Corner Blocks (2 per side) is much stiffer and moves or twists less than a Bass with only two very long Ribs and NO Corner Blocks at all. A Cornerless Bass has the sound it has because it vibrates more freely and without restriction of the stiffened center Rib construction. I will assume from this that the thicker edges are to prevent edge splitting since the Bass can twist more within its form. The greatly distressed Ribs of my Bass are evidence of this movement as they took the blunt of the damages over time rather than the Top or Back. Both the Top and Back has their share of cracks and splits but the Top of this Bass pre-restoration is in better condition than my Hart/Fendt Bass was. The Hart needed a complete mold made to fix the Top whereas the 'Storioni' is estimated to need only a fraction or Arch correction and can be done without a mold at all.

Old Basses tell their own stories but the language they speak is not always easy to understand or even listened to at all sometimes. Learning from the past is a great thing but that effort must be made.

On the Rib depth of my Bass the maximum at the bottom is only 7 3/4" (Ribs only). My Dodd being the other 'loud'/deep sounding Bass I owned was only 7 1/2" deep. I put this Bass up against Homer's Gagliano and Biase's (ex Homers') Guadagnini and it was deeper and smoother than the both of them on all 4 strings. The person who bought my Dodd also went to Biase's on my recommendation and played those Basses as well but still liked my Dodd better.

Rib Depth alone does not make a Bass sound deeper or louder in my opinion. It's the whole Bass and its woods that do this I believe.

What you say may be true. I guess I think there are relatively so few cornerless basses compared with regular basses that it's hard to make generalisations really meaningful, as there are still so many other variables. But we can try.

If cornerless basses sound so fine, generally, why then are they so outnumbered by regular ones?

(... and I was actually asking the other Ken about his rib depth on the build photo)

why then are they so out numbered??
 

Yes, I know it was the other Ken but thought it valuable to once again throw in my two cents regardless..lol

Why so few? Well, tradition for one I would guess and pride maybe as well on the other hand. Guitar makers were not thought of as highly as Violin makers so that might be a mental block on their Cornerless beasts. Also, ever try lifting one around the stage or moving a few feet over from the player next to you? Where the heck do you grab the thing? I have a hard time moving it around but the sound makes up for it. Also, I can't lean it on the chair next to me like I do my other Basses. Should I glue a Block to the outside of the Ribs like a Horizontal 'bumper' to lift, carry and lean the Bass? This might be something to help with this problem I think as well as some Bumpers on the Upper and Lower Bouts to lay it down.

Cornerless Viol/Violin Family instruments have been made in Italy for hundreds of years but for some reason, they never change tradition. Even the Chanot's and others in France and England (19th century) made some cornerless Violins as well as others elsewhere. The Spaniards adopting the Guitar Form as their main style of making Basses after the Spanish Guitar itself took hold world wide. They are forgetting one thing here in Spain though! It's an Italian thing Bass-wise and not Spanish no matter how well 'borrowed' or adapted..:cool:

They are almost 10 inches at the bottom block, but the ribs taper to 8.5 at the upper bout and then down to less than 6 at the neck. When I designed the bass, I was thinking full sized bottom with 3/4 string length and playablility. That was before Ken's comments about depth of ribs versus depth of sound. When I get the top glued on I may alter the width, maybe not though.


I am going to glue the strips in separately so the hide glue should not be an issue as that can slip around and conform the the shape.

It is haunting me now......:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:


Now I have to cut those ribs down to a proper size. No big deal I will treat it like a restoration practice project. Shoot I could probably make an instrument out of the cut offs. :D :D :D

Well you don't HAVE to cut them down. You'll never know whether your hunch was correct unless you try. I'd think about the look, too, from the side. Take some side-on shots with the top taped on. if you like the tapered look, keep it.

The gofriller in chandlers book has a nice taper from 9" at the saddle to about 7" at the heel, and that's a carved back with no bend. Looks nice and it's a master bass ...

have you done any calculations of the relative volume of the upper and lower bouts compared with another model?

Well, I am working at the hospital for the next few days so that will give me some time to contemplate the issue. I took a look out of the corner of my eye when I entered my shop this morning and it hit me as "too big". And then I got to thinking about moving it around with a stand partner as Ken S. described.

You guys have been a great big help and I really appreciate your interest.The suggestions so far have resulted in making it something I can be satisfied with, so I thank you all for that, including Arnold's pm's. Designing a bass is a lot harder than I thought.

So until the weekend, I let it sit.

maybe velcro can be called upon, again, to perform modern miracles ...:D

Ken McKay,

Just looked at some of your progress pics... looking good! I am getting inspired to give it a whirl myself... I will finally have a big project out of the workshop soon. (Dining room set restoration for my wife... about 8 months work so far.)

Once I have some room, I may be sending you a PM.

Carve on,
Brian

Thanks Brian, I have been working on it here and there. I have the back planed to thickness now and the top arching pretty much refined the way I want it. I have the purfling and am ready to cut the grooves. The corpus is off the false back platform now because I glued on a "false top" to hold the rib shape while I glue on the top when it is ready. I will show some pics of that soon.

I will be glad to help anyway I can.

I've just caught up on your progress and it is looking really fantastic to me. I'd give the current rib depth a whirl. After all, taking off is easier than putting it back on, and with the long taper like that it is plausible that it will have the right sound. I don't know if there is a formula for rib depth. This fellow is building different shaped cornerless basses: http://www.allbasse.com/

His design, which is sort of a rounded Savart shape, has a rather radical rib taper from bottom to top. I don't know what the measurements are, but I think it looked similar to what you currently have going.

I really like the way your barrel arching shaped up. It's pretty obvious the you have a good instinct as a builder.

David, I tried to enter the site shown above and my anti-virus program reported an intrusion alert, some type of worm/virus.

Gee I hope not. It is a flash site of the bass maker Antoine Leducq. Try this one. This is more the entry page: http://www.allbasse.com/

I don't get the alerts, but then I'm on a Mac and I haven't run anti-virus in a long time. Hmmm.

Looks OK to me, is it only when you select a link? Seems that it pop ups in a new window, which I could say your AV program may see that as something potentially unwanted.

OK here.
 

OK here. Sounds like AV protection to me.

Here are some pics of my guitar shaped Baldontoni, 1820.
http://www.myfamily.com/Photos/ViewP...px?iid=3174660

paul,
thanks for posting
the link in your post requires a password, i can see no pics.

Ermanno Ferrari
 

Has any one ever seen Ermanno Ferrari with his Cornerless Bass or have some pictures to share with us? I have been told in a copy of a letter that he bought a Bass by Spanish maker J.Guillami from Gary Karr some years ago.

All I have found so far on the web is this; http://www.yamamoto-bass.com/cd/ferrari/ferrari.html

http://www.yamamoto-bass.com/cd/ferrari/8.jpg

omg...
 

Mike, I am so sorry. You posted that about 3 years ago while I was typing up my post on page one/1 of this thread about the same time. In reading back over it just now I noticed that you were never replied to. I don't think anyone intended to ignore you at all. It's just that I missed it and the subject direction was changed when they started talking here about making a new bass.

Yes, just top and bottom blocks to answer your question. No corner blocks at all. Also, the ribs are made from 2 pieces usually, one on each side.

I have since acquired a quasi-cornerless bass that is in restoration. The Ribs are 2 pieces but the top and back has corners but not like we are used to seeing. They hook a bit downwards instead of coming to an evenly shaped blunt corner. There are small scalloped blocks 'outside' on the ribs supporting the corners. A total of 8 of these mini scalloped blocks. This bass is nicknamed 'Scallopini'.;)

This bass does not look in shape or outline like the typical guitar-shaped double bass. It looks kind of normal for a handmade Italian bass. It has a round-back with an upper angle break and sloped shoulders. The back I think is Walnut, Italian/European and with some flame cut on the slab, not quartered. The ribs seem un-figured but might be Italian walnut as well.

Update..
 

Today after another brief discussion with Arnold who is restoring the 'ex-Riccardi bass' I have decided to remove the Storioni attribution from the listing and change it officially to "Italian Guitar Model Bass, Italy, 18th Century".

When I first bought the Bass a well known historian that knew the Bass said it was not Storioni or even Cremona and most likely 19th century. When two prominent Bass Luthiers looked inside the bass their estimates were approximately mid-18th century, give or take a few decades.

Now that the Bass is opened up and getting worked on the 1750 or so estimate looks more likely than anything near the 19th century. Who actually made it? I don't really know, I wasn't there! Perhaps in the future something will come along and tell us more. I did see a slightly similar Scroll/pegbox on another Italian Bass but that had I think a replaced Back and was not cornerless. The FFs were different as well but, the Scroll was close and maybe not a match for the Bass it was on.

When I first heard of this Bass for sale about a year or two before getting it I was told it was a Rogeri. When I bought it the name was changed back to Storioni which it had been called before it was a Rogeri. Perhaps the Bass going to market was the reason for all the famous name calling.

This by no means in itself lessens the greatness of this Double Bass but it does relieve me in the 'burden of proof' if it were to be sold. Regardless, it will not change the asking price either!;)

Chet atkins playing guitar in front of a cornerless player http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-c66SJPuUI

And if you look close you can see Ken Smith in the background next to to girl with the poodle dress. :D

1954..
 

Wow, who is that guy playing the Cornerless bass and where is that thing now. That bass is way way out of his league..:p

It looks a bit like my bass but I doubt that it is. I think..:confused:

Me next to a girl when I was 2 or 3 years old? :eek: