Ken M here are a few more shots from Elgars book since you don't have it any more. The "Lemur" bass and a nice cornerless attributed to Giovanni Dodi, Modena 1853.

Its interesting to see the inside; the linings are kerfed like a geetar. And check the size of the neck block!

Hey I just noticed that the "Dodi" looks a bit like the "Testore" in that little pic on your site. Could it be the same bass taken from a different angle??? That lower bout shape looks almost identical. The neck block area looks a bit different - it could just be the camera angle ... or p'raps its been cut down ... do you have a better colour picture??

Thanks Matthew.

I knew I should have used kerfed linings, it would have been easier, I almost did. That upper block is massive.

The bass attributed to Testore on my site looks a little different than that Dodi. Have a look side by side. http://www.upnorthstrings.com/cornerlessbasspage4.html

I don't have a bigger photo of the Testore, wish I did.

I like that Dodi, especially the bold arching.

Testore, etc..
 

At this time I doubt that the Cornerless Basses we have looked at were made by either Testore, Ruggeri or even Storioni. The work of these Basses look nothing like their 'known' work so attributing it to them may be a bit careless or a dream at best.

The Elgar Storioni in the Milan Museum I was told is NOT a Storioni. This has caused many people to use this name for almost anything Italian with the Guitar shape.

Also in the Elgar book are three 19th century makers known for Guitar shaped Basses. These are Dodi, Boccaccini, and Baldentoni. None of them from Cremona or Milan. Many Spanish Basses are of Guitar shape as well but again, mainly from the 19th century.

I will be taking my Bass down to the Kimmel Center to be photographed and looked over by Duane Rosengard sometime next month. I would just as likely assume that Boccaccini made my Bass if not a great Spaniard maker sometime in the early 19th century as I would believe the attribution to Storioni by the previous owner. I listed it like that mainly in respect for the widow of Riccardi as a memorial type thing as that is what the Bass was mainly called. In other circles it is known as 'The Riccardi Bass' with no other attribution.

I have played only two other Basses I can recall with the type of sound that my Bass has. One is an attributed Seraphin and the other attributed to Maggini, both large Violin cornered Basses. What ever my Bass is, the maker is one of great skill in both workmanship and tone as far as this Bass goes. Having played all three Basses mentioned above, I prefer both the playability and tone of my Bass. If it had been of Violin shape, It would have been priced up there with the other two Basses and out of my reach. Lucky me!..lol

Where was the photo of the "testore" from?

from..
 

From the String Emporium website, upper right corner. I recall him referring to that as his 'Moccha' (ala chocolate) name. I don't recall it ever being referred to as a Testore Bass. Testore is another name attached to old Italian Basses that are crude and usual or for lack of another name to call it by.

Steven Koscica wrote me back when I email him about it saying:

"Sorry, but I don't have any measurements on that bass. Sold it about 7-8 years ago. It was my own personal orchestra bass. It was attributed to Testore, but it had a Tarantino head I know. It was a great bass!

Ken on the latest pic of your top with the ffs taped on, it looks like you have the left hand one upside-down. The da Salo ffs are not symmetrical, the inside sweep of the S shape is much more bulbous on the lower curve. To me it looks like you have the more runcible curve at the top of the ff, making the thing look top-heavy and out of balance with the generous lower bout.

Good eye, they weren't taped on very well. I fixed it now. http://www.upnorthstrings.com/cornerlessbasspage6

Wow...
 

This one looks similar to my Bass as it was once attributed to d'Salo erroneously of course. The shape is very similar as well as the varnish color but just wrong century.

http://www.mdw.ac.at/I105/orpheon/Fo...dasalo-fr2.jpghttp://www.kensmithbasses.com/Double...es/body_fr.jpg

The other one questioned to me looks more Testoreish. The Milanese were know for making instrument without Purfling to save time and money. Even the Scrolls were left half made. This lack of Purfling for cheaper instruments was also copied by the Germans and the English from the 18th - 19th century.

http://www.mdw.ac.at/I105/orpheon/Fo..._dasalo-fr.jpg

The Scroll work on my Bass being somewhere in between the two but totally an individual idea.

http://www.kensmithbasses.com/Double.../scroll_bk.jpghttp://www.kensmithbasses.com/Double...s/scroll_L.jpg

Spanish Makers...
 

Ok, on this Spanish Violin Book I mentioned, the Author is 'Ramon Pinto Comas'. I was told the other day to buy this book by him as he was also one of the foremost authorities on Spanish Basses as well. This information came from Duane Rosengard. As we were on the Phone discussing this and both surfing the 'Net at the same time we found that he has a Website. I understand he speaks Spanish and French at least but not certain if he speaks any English at all. Duane took pictures of my Cornerless Bass about 2 weeks ago (along with the Gilkes) and asked if he could send some pictures to him on my behalf and of course I said Yes to that. Then I started typing an Email to the Author in Spain letting him know about this Bass with a link to my Webpage and that better pictures would be sent to him asap from Rosengard who just happens to be a friend of his. Duane knows just about everyone worldwide and has a memory that is unbelievable.

Duane thinks this Bass of mine might very well be Spanish as the Scroll fits that Profile being only influenced by Italy but more of a Spanish flair than Italian as far as the Pegbox goes. He pointed out that the Brescian Scrolls have points on the Cheeks like the d'Salos do. I had also heard that Tom Martin looking at pics sometime ago also mentioned it looked Spanish. The Top is made from extremely fine grained Violin grade Spruce or Fir but the detail work throughout is that of a very fine maker considered to be above the average Italian that made Cornerless Basses and easily over the Spanish we have seen. Perhaps some Spaniard that trained in Italy or an Italian the moved to Spain who had exceptional skills made this fine Bass with a sound to rival most great Basses as well as its own beauty.

On the Brescian thing Duane reminded me that he is one of the organizers of the upcoming Brescian Expo in Italy starting in June this year for a month. Also, it will be a once in a lifetime viewing of several d'Salo and Maggini Basses that will may never may again in the same room. I did see a link but can't find it now. At this time, I don't know if I can get away to go.

do you mean this:
http://www.giopaolomaggini.com/
?

Yessssss....
 

Yes, and thx for finding the link. This is what they have listed so far to be on show there; http://www.giopaolomaggini.com/w/en/...ments-on-show/

Brescian Scroll..
 

And this is the Brescian Scroll style I was talking about that my Cornerless Bass doesn't have;

http://www.giopaolomaggini.com/i/str...i-19-testa.jpghttp://www.giopaolomaggini.com/i/str...i-20-teste.jpg

As listed for the expo are 3 more Maggini Basses (5 total) and the Dragonetti d'Salo as well which will be brought out still in its 3-string get-up as pictured in Elgar and Pio.

ha:), 90 minute flight for me, ken, if we meet there , we will drink some vino together, ok?

i know it´s off topic (but can maggini be offtopic?)
the exhibition is over, there are some pics and videos http://www.giopaolomaggini.com/w/cat/english/photos/
on their website

Topic?
 

Well actually one of those Maggini's belongs to the Asst. Principal of the National Symphony in Washington DC. While that Bass was there on Display in Brescia, he was borrowing my Cornerless Bass and sharing it with the Principal who is actually returning it today.

Does the Maggini post belong here? Well seeing as I have this added and connected story, it fits right in. I am sure that when the Bass is fully restored it will go right back to Washington for them to try again as they both loved playing it these past 7 weeks since it was picked up at my office by the Principal.

The small Bass called the 'Dumas' Maggini was on sale in 1971 when I was out on tour passing thru Chicago. I almost bought it but didn't have the money.. Small detail..lol

The Maggini Bass from DC/MD (National Symphony) I will get to play one day as I have an open invitation now after loaning out my Cornerless Bass to them.

Cornerless for Jazz..
 

Last night for the first time I used my Cornerless Bass (Attr. Storioni) on a fairly long Jazz gig. It was just a Duo with Piano. Normally I would use my Bisiach 'labeled' Bass as it's kind of a do-all type Bass and fitted for a Pickup as well.

I received a call from a friend about a week ago about an unveiling of a Mosaic of the Riccardi Bass made by an Artist that is the wife of one of Riccardi's former Students. To be respectful, I brought the Bass to the ceremony and placed it beside the Mosaic for all to take pictures and see them side by side. I believe the Mosiac was made from the photos on my website as it doesn't show the C-extension that is in all the pictures of Riccardi playing the Bass. I removed it because I used the Ebony Chromatic type and not the mechanical version.

Anyway, to avoid carrying two Basses from my house on a 2-hour trip and then back to Philly for a 5 hour gig (yes, we play five(5) 45 min. sets with 15 min. breaks.. a long haul), I put my old trusty 1970s AKG mic wrapped in foam inside the Bridge feet like back in the old Studio days.

This Bass sounded so fat that when my son came in to listen from behind a wall where he couldn't see me, he thought I had brought a much bigger Bass as the further away you get in a room, the louder that Bass is acoustically. The Mic was only used for a little presence so that the piano player could hear my notes. He could feel the Bass, but couldn't hear it being so close.

With the Bass strung with regular Flexocor and a Stark Flex 'E', my son Jon said it sounded like Ray Brown's Bass, attack wise! I know the Bass is a top class bowing-orchestral Bass but until last night I had never tested its Jazz capabilities.

By the way, this Bass still has to go into restoration for about a year long overhaul. I wonder if it could sound even better? That is scary. There were several Bassists at the Riccardi Memorial and all of them had stories to tell about that Bass. It was fun watching them line up to try it once again as it had been awhile since any of them had seen or played that Bass.

I hope to be getting some Jpegs sent to me soon of the Mosaic as well as some photos of Riccardi playing the Bass. I will then put together a memorial page for him linked from the Cornerless Bass's page for all to see.

Ermanno Ferrari
 

Has any one ever seen Ermanno Ferrari with his Cornerless Bass or have some pictures to share with us? I have been told in a copy of a letter that he bought a Bass by Spanish maker J.Guillami from Gary Karr some years ago.

All I have found so far on the web is this; http://www.yamamoto-bass.com/cd/ferrari/ferrari.html

http://www.yamamoto-bass.com/cd/ferrari/8.jpg

Ken,

Good story!
Did you notice the string length being a problem as compared to your others. Do you think the string length has anything to do with it's attack? Are you still planning to make it shorter?

My cornerless bass project is in plastic wrap while I set up 60 violins for local students. I will get back at it after the busy season.

shorten?
 

Yes, I still have that plan in my head. This is an expensive Bass. I have to make sure it is playable for the average Orchestra pro should I decide to sell it down the road.

I have used a small piece of wood under the strings to assimilate a shorter string length and see how it might affect the sound. The most noticeable difference was the left hand stretch. The tone didn't seem to change all that much. Slightly tighter if anything. The organ like bottom is 2x the thickness I am used to so loosing a little of that and adding some punch would be an acceptable trade-off.

I think it should be made to a 42" length if not a hair shorter.

Ken, did you know that David Weibe built a copy of the Riccardi bass?

Yup..
 

I have pictures of it as well. He did not copy the Scroll though and also used completely different wood than on the 'Riccardi' Bass. I think to have any chance at all to come close you must copy as much of the original Bass as possible including the materials used.

Spanish?
 

http://www.contrabajo.org/foro/files...v_1894_229.jpg

Found it here while surfing..

Top dude top hat
 

You need that hat.

Ken, take a look here http://www.upnorthstrings.com/cornerlessbasspage6 for a comparison of the bass I am making with the da Salo ff holes. They were copied from the photograph. Mine do look different, but kinda similar. It just goes to show that when you copy from a photo, then lay the paper over the contour of the bass top, they come out a little different. :confused: But live and learn. I will cut the nicks (sp) when I get the neck on and that will help.

As far as lopsided goes, It just came out that way without using a mold. I do regret not fixing the right upper bout when I had a chance. I am going to antique it in the end and all the characteristics will hopefully blend. It is what it is though.

ok.. but..
 

What I see in the FFs is that although you think they look similar, the curve concept is not even close. The length, width, taper, tabs, curves, position, pitch etc. It's a different F-pattern altogether, period.

If you were to show me 10 F-patterns with the d'Salo included and then showed me yours, it would be a slim chance I would guess you've ever seen the d'Salo. To me, they have no similarities other than they are FFs. Sorry, it's just how I see it.

Also your comment, "I didn't want them to look Cremonese". What does that have to do with d'Salo? He is from Brescia, not Cremona. What's wrong with looking Cremonese either? Giuseppe Guarneri was from Cremona as well but his F-pattern is completely different from Strad so what is it that you think would look Cremona?

so this is a "Pietro Giacomo Rogeri (Brescia, 1680 - 1730)" ?

imho the f-holes may look brescian, but the rest of the bass looks very fine for a 300 year old bass. (?)

one bass is not enough...
 

http://www.fernandogrillo.net/Fernan...sm_FOTO_25.jpg

:) i also like this pic from mr. grillo.
(nice website, thanks eric)

Pietro Giacomo Rogeri (Brecia, 1680 - 1730)" ?
 

So they claim!

My Bass looks at least as old condition-wise but proving it's a Storioni let alone Rogeri or d'Salo as previously claimed is just as hard to swallow.

My Gilkes from 1814 is hard to believe as well condition-wise. The Hart Bass made only slightly later (c.1830) looks quite typical for a Bass that was used for almost 2 centuries. The Prescott Bass I has recently was another Bass in remarkable condition for its age as compared to other Prescotts we have seen.

I am not an expert on Rogeri or any other Italian maker for that matter. Maybe it is and maybe it isn't. I am sure that in this case as with many others it is possible that the highest name 'on the food chain' was sought out and certified.

but it sounds good (click on "mp3" on the navigationbar on the left)
i´m listening to "itesi" right now

http://www.fernandogrillo.net/Fernan...lo/default.asp

and..
 

for comparison purposes..

http://www.fernandogrillo.net/Fernan.../sm_FOTO_1.jpghttp://www.kensmithbasses.com/double...es/full_FR.jpghttp://www.riccardisviolinshop.com/i...ardi-sr-lg.jpg
Pictured above, the late Bob Riccardi Sr. with the attributed Storioni.

Who speaks Italian?
 

hi folks... i'm new to the forum but was intrigued by this thread. the subject of the "Spanish" photo above is most likely Catalan; though the list describes a "contrabajista en Madrid", my guess is that the player, the bass, or both are from these parts...

there is a relatively unknown tradition of pear-shaped bass luthiery in Catalonia which revolves around the instrument's presence in the "Cobla", or traditional dance orchestra that accompanies the "Sardana", a popular national folk dance one often sees in small towns on Sundays after mass. maybe someone is hip to these groups? the band consists of a flabiol (3-holed flute) player -- sort of a lead alto, if you will -- a few nasty traditional double reed instruments (tibles), a few more double reeds in a lower register (tenores), some trumpets, flugelhorns, valve trombones (or the like), and... the poor, overworked bassist, who pushes the whole thing uphill. with no help from anyone!

the typical instrument is (or was -- nowadays players tend to grab the cheapest, loudest Chinese plywood for the job), as the picture indicates, a slightly squatty pear-shaped bass with 3 gut strings, set up a yard off the fingerboard for maximum thumpage. the nickname for this style of bass is the "Berra" (Boar, a play on "Pera", for pear).

i've been told that there was something of a golden age in the construction of these instruments in the 19th century, esp. in the city of Tortosa, near Valencia. i've played a couple, plus some modern copies, and they're absolutely lovely. very special, a bit cantankerous but svelt. i would love to own one someday, though right now i'm happy with my little French bass, which i was told was imported as the Catalan market petered out.

another contrabassist who plays a beautiful Italian instrument is Stefano Scodaniddbio, new music virtuoso and former Grillo student. <http://www.stefanoscodanibbio.com/photos/gallery14.htm>

my 2 cts italian
 

Bellissimo Storioni ... complimenti! >>nice storioni...compliments<<<

Con gli Auguri di Fernando Grillo >>>???? from fernando grillo<<<<


Il giorno 29/dic/07, alle ore 21:59, Ken Smith ha scritto:

>>>> at 12/12/07 at 9:59 pm ken smith wrote:<<<<<

A.Mariani, 1678 Pesaro
 

Lucio Buccarella,contrabbasso, with his Cornerless Bass by Antonio Mariani, 1678 Pesaro.
http://www.imusici.info/nuove/buccarellaL.jpghttp://www.imusici.info/immagini/freetime1.jpg

Bassist with the Italian Chamber Orchestra 'I Musici'. Scroll down the members page and see the Storioni Cello as well.

http://www.imusici.info/immaginiclick/i_musici5.jpghttp://www.imusici.info/immagini/budapestfiati.jpghttp://www.imusici.info/immagini/Musiciold1.jpg

and more..
 

Antoni Torelló, a Catalan and formerly Principal of the Philly Orchestra.

http://www.mundoclasico.com/img/espe...o/Torello2.jpg

Three strings? Is that what he's playing? Christopher Williams from Barcelona was right on target in his post above (post#78, last page).

Hey Ken -

Grillo said:

Beautiful Storioni, with best wishes from him and then the date.

Grillo said:
 

Thx guys. I knew it was something close to that but wanted to get his actual words. I guess he either believes it's a real Storioni or is just being polite. I guess if it was a Spanish Bass like the one Torello is playing (I think it's Spanish) then Grillo might have mentioned it, but then again maybe not. His Bass however is beautiful looking.

Ken, I just played in a Strauss Waltz Orch on New Year'sDay w/ Dennis Masuzzo (the big 5ths tuning advocate) in the section and he had a beautiful cornerless Italian that is supposedly from 1833 by Vincenzo Lucarini. I wish I had taken a picture of it. It has a similar shape to Mr. Grillo's bass and had a very fine sound and spread throughout the room. My Prescott held it's own ;) next to it along w/ a really nice old Italian violin cornered bass that was from the late 1700's.

Here's one I found from Italy, c.1840 but reported stolen in 2002;

http://www.contrabbassi.it/immagini/contrarub.jpg

Label Vincenzo Lucarini
Fecit in Faentae 1840

and..
 

One of the greatest makers in the 19th century, Giuseppe Baldontoni. This Bass from 1850.

http://www.contrabbassi.it/immagini/...oni_fronte.jpghttp://www.contrabbassi.it/immagini/...toni_retro.jpg

This is the 3rd Baldontoni I have seen. Great looking Basses.