lol
 

I know, but in NY, things can get tough at night.. :eek:

This was Brutal hijacking of my thread Lol ;)

....
 

You want it all deleted? You know, once you get Wayne in here, anything can happen. It's your thread. Just say the word.

No that's ok, its not that bad... I got nothing new anyways :D

The tool and the Cleat...
 

Well as Arnold suggested I am going to be using Diamond Cleats, the cleats are about 1" each side and 1/8" thick and also with the grain running about 45 degrees ...

I am using this time an bigger chisel as Mathew suggested, he say that it will be more fun this way :)

I am going to be making few deep throat C clamps... as per Wayne Advise to use the right tool for the job (no lipstick sorry)

and Taking all apart and do it again as Ken also recommend for me to do



http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/t...6/100_4414.jpg


after making the clamps I am going to laid down the cleats but before I will send and picture for everybody to see what is going to be my plan :D

Ha! And get that chisel sharpened ;)

lol...
 

You can start that thread! :eek:

Tell me about it ... just spent three hours with 80 grit trying to undo the damage I did to the back of a pristine HSS plane blade by putting it down, freshly lapped, on my bench overnight. If anything defines "the pits", that does :(

Chisel Sharpened...???
 

No no nooooo!!!.... I am good in that department, It doesn,t really show in the picture but that chisel its very sharp, I did spend yesterday more than an hour sharpening that chisel its deadly sharp


I start by flatting with 80 grip sand paper on a granite stone, then I move to 320g sand paper, and so on…
Then I use my Veritas honing jig and register jig (Amazing little tool) for the bevel a 25 degrees again 80G, 320G, and tree diamond stones 320, 600, 1000. After that I use and 2000G sand paper and finally a leather belt for mirror finish…. When I done I do a 30 Degrees micro bevel… and I use the back on my The thumb nail to make sure its sharp…

Also while I am working I am make sure stay sharp… by honing it with my leather belt… those chisels my be not the best chisels out there but they hold the bevel sharp as long I don’t mess with too much H. glue or little metal wires like the ones that I found on some of the patches in my DB

PS it doesn’t give me you a lot of room for accidents

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/t...a26/myhand.jpg

PS how the cleat is looking it is fine????

Hi Wayne I guess the traditional way is chisel out the Cleat after Gluing… I don’t think that sanding before gluing it’s a bad idea… for now I am sticking to what I have seem (don’t want to be very creative).. I am going to tape around the cleats for sure, don’t want to nick the top… to be honest I did make few nicks the first time

The hand its fine, it was a 10mm wound and it hit the bone.. Lots of blood and all that, I lost some tactile sensation on the skin of my finger, I got a none feeling in a good part of that finger right after the accident, like local local anesthesia feeling… I was tacking down the cleats and old hide glue from the top with the small chisel and guess what! my hand was on the way… and the chisel slipped….. Boom… work time was over

Now I am very careful and aware where my fingers are all the time…

I guess I saw your microbevel and thought it was a burr ...

i think you'll find that no amount of tape will save the top from a sharp chisel.

Better to be careful and use a slicing movement in an upward directon. You'll work it out. Your cleat looks fine to me.

I hate to derail the thread any further, but -

If you are stropping your chisels, the microbevels probably aren't worth the effort - but I haven't tried both (together) either. It just seems a bit counterintuitive (to me) to put a tiny little bevel on a blade and then polish it on a soft surface. But hey - whatever works! ;)

the cleat looks fine , but as we've come to realize ....

'' one mans cleat is another mans poison '' :o:)

I though so too, In fact I did post a little thread about it in TB... and every one seems to agree that micro bevel was the way to go...I just make sure the are sharp one of my test is to shave few hairs of my arm, stroke a piece of paper on the edge with the chisel(this is a hard one to pass Lol).... if I only have learned something working with wood is that if your tools aren't sharp you are not going to go far....

I got a good camera but not as good as yours I can really get cl ose details as your pictures... I guess you are into Photography too hum?

Tape, I did save the top from few nicks last time, but u are right no tape is going to offer 100% against a sharp chisel, that is for sure.

last but not least... yes I saw ur video shaving those cleats, u are using a totally different technique as I did, I was using downward force (not a great idea), u also cut with the flat part I was using the bevel part... the cleats closed to the bass bar are specially hard to shape (keep posting your restoration project it really helps a lot and more videos if thats posible :))

That's right :D

Before??
 

Wayne, how can you get even clamp pressure if the Cleats are already beveled?

Also, isn't it easier to Bevel/shape them AFTER the are glued down to something?

Wayne whatever works for you is fine. Your descriptions are detailed, but I'd love if you would share some pics of your work.

Wayne, it's better if you work out a way to resize them yourself, or even easier you open a free flickr or photobucket account and upload them there, then link to them. Its easy and you retain control of the pics. And you can use them on your own website if you want.

Alternatively you could take a sander to the photos and get the size down that way! ;)

Here I go Again
 

Well Guys this is my plan:
1) For laying of the cleats: They are spaced about 2" in between, no more than 2 1/4", PS I didn't care for the proper grain orientation of the cleats at this point is only for placement.

2) Also this is where I am planning the sound post patch to go... I am not doing the SP patch just yet, I need to make a couples tools for this job and then I am planing to practice this procedure in a piece of scrap wood first...

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/t...6/100_4499.jpg

I am seeking for advise before I and clue this up... I can really use a series of steps sequence or methodology, and don't forget tips... :D

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/t...6/100_4498.jpg




The tool, it isnt fancy but it will get the job done...!!!

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/t...6/100_4500.jpg

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/t...6/100_4497.jpg

Ruben it looks like you're on the right track to me.

As far as sequence goes I would repair the bottom block areas and do the sound post patch first, then the cleats last.

My tip: I often use small bags of lead shot as weights to clamp the cleats ... it does as good a job as a clamp and much easier.

Thank u, good tip... It really makes sence...i still need a couple extra tools to make the sp patch...!

I think the cleats are insurance, not the main game. After fitting the post patch it's nice to be able to manoeuver a plane around that area without knocking into cleats. Same with the block repair. If all the cleats are fitted as laid out, it's going to be less fun trimming the block patch. I think.

Wayne, speaking of sequencing, you dint mean by the above that you would cleat the top THEN reshape it, if needed? :)

If you are going to re-shape the Top from depressions or sinkage you HAVE to take out the Bassbar. Actually, you need to 'gut' the inside of the Top if it's a full pressing. If a partial pressing, remove everything in that area if not more.

The usual areas that sink are the lower Bassbar area, upper Bassbar area, center Bridge area and Soundpost area in that order from what I have seen. If just under the Bar at the bottom, it is possible that it was caused by a sprung-in Bar. The Bar itself when sprung in will not push out the Top in the center like some think because it is anchored against thinner graduated areas of the Top that are weaker. The sprung Bar will pull the top inwards at the ends and possibly split to top as well.

I have had quite a few basses restored where the Top was partially or completely re-shaped so I have seen the process quite a few times. Last week I was up at Arnold's and saw the plaster mold outside behind the shop. I went to lift it and uhgggg, no way. It's a two man job. Arnold mentioned that each time he had to move the mold around with or without the Top in it he had his assistant help him move it.

Hey Guys
 

Thank you for the feedback.... I got a question and this applies to SP patch and all...
I read that to get a good bounding you need to let the cleat sit on the top from one minute till the hide glue jell, and the using a hair dryer heat the glue again and then apply pressure to it...

Or I should just apply pressure to the cleat as fast as I can and clamp with good pressure, not too much but firm..

Yes, just glue it and clamp it. Don't worry about applying too much clamp pressure. Fine Woodworking had a great article a few years ago where they tested joints put together with varying amounts of clamp pressure, and different glues. What they discovered to everyone's surprise, is that there is no such thing as a "starved" glue joint. The high-pressure joints, though they squeezed out more of the glue, were actually stronger.

When you get ready to glue in your soundpost patch, make sure you size the wood of the bass top and the patch with thin hide glue, because there will be considerable end grain revealed. Without sizing, the glue will soak into the endgrain too much and the joint will eventually come apart. Also, if you are not using a counter form on the opposite side, you will need a lot of clamps, and you'll need to apply them quickly. Gluing down temporary cleats around the soundpost patch will keep it from sliding around when it's full of slippery glue.

I think the faster the better. Hot hide glue is strong as it work at a molecular level. If it create a bond it will fail, as the glue itself is brittle. So it's better not to let it jell, but to clamp fast and with a good pressure.
This way the extra not needed amount of glue will go out from the joint.
If the glue jell too soon, maybe it is too thick, or the workshop is too cold.
A good joint, as far as glue thickness and temperature go, is when the surfaces don't slip, after rubbing, even before they are clamped.
Good luck, Ruben, you have a nice project there...
oops, sorry Arnold, I was typing while you was answering...

I am thinking on doing the bass bar… it got crack at both ends it doesn’t look like its growing or its open… but it if recommended, may as well get it done now….

Well now seems like it’s a tough job… some people prefer to avoid to change the BB unless its 100% necessary… I can’t really tell if it need to be replace, because it’s too old or stiff… It does have a crack… that’s a bad sign…

Now stupid question… can it be shorten a little and inlay patch the ends??? Or it will be an abomination of my sick mind??? :D

bar..
 

The bass is apart and will be edges as necessary to fit back when done. You do NOT want to take it apart again if after you string up the bass and the weakest area not the Old Bar splits more.

Carve out the bar and clean the bass since you might re-shape the top or not. You have the best view of that. Then repair the crack 100% after shaping top and then cleat it on top of the wood after fitting the bar along that surface but don't glue in bar. Then notch the fitted bar to go over the cleats and glue it down. Do not inlay the cleats as that will weaken the top. Everything should fit 100% with just finger pressure, no force. Then clamp to make a life long glue joint. All excess glue not needed will squeeze out. Don't be so scientific with the amount of glue.

The grain of the wood, especially the end grain by far will suck in some glue. What it doesn't need, it spits out. One time a saddle lifted on me after a repair. The Block was new, sucked in a lot of glue and the ebony came loose from the tail wire pulling it. Re-gluing fixed it as I did it myself in my shop. That, I had time and tools for. The restoration I didn't..;)

Thank you Ken for the detail explanation I was thinking on inlay patch bellow the BB (worng), I need to read about a little more about the BB replacement, So I am looking at SP patch, bass bar, block edges and Edges repair, ah and also cleats… I am going to be busy for a while

Ps I will let you guys know my plan in advantage just to be sure that I am in the right path

Note:
 

This thread has been cleaned up by deleting the last several off-topic posts and its relative replies.

Ruben, you have the floor..

Sound post patch
 

I find it easier to cut the patch out first, then trace the outline onto the back. I find it is easier then to carve the bed for the patch, keeping the edges crisp and clean.

Sure Mat but he also said to make a very small path with a 90 degrees angle... I know u rather do a big one about 10d, and that's ok, but it makes me wonder if what he do could apply to a db top also

Sure you can do that on a DB top. But whether you think its a good idea or not is up to you. Personally, I don't really understand why he chooses to do it that way, and its the only time I've ever seen it done that way. So unless I can get the genius behind it, i'll stick with what I know!