Contributes in a positive way or a negative way?

I read that a lot but I don't get what the length of the wood fibres/grains has to do with the price of eggs.

eggs?
 

Longer fibers uninterrupted by bout curves and blocks produces a deeper sound. The new copy bass proved that as it's the deepest plush sounding bass that Arnold has produced from similar woods.

Eggs? Price depends on where you shop..:eek:

One more think on sound. This bass before restoration had a similar sound to the attributed Maggini (now attributed d'Salo) that Tom Martin has beed trying to sell for some 300 GBP but will go to auction soon at a 150-200 GBP estimated return. Also, the Seraphin attributed bass (formerly attributed to Busan) that was traded to the Minnesota Orchestra a few years back for the Maggini?/dSalo? bass also had a similar sound.

The other two basses mentioned above are Large Violin outlined basses close to or at a 4/4 measurement depending on who you ask. My Cornerless bass although a 44+" string length then, fit in a 3/4 bag and has medium depth ribs. Still, it put out sound as deep, thick and loud as the others.

So, in this case, design beats size with no loss or sound.

Unless you play these basses, it's very hard to understand what I am saying as I myself thought I understood it until I played all 3 of these basses within the same year or so. It's a live and learn kinda thing in my opinion. Until you taste it, you don't know what I am describing. The same with sound and feel. My 2 cents.;)

Thanks for your 2c and I respect your experience with many fine basses, but I still don't see how one can make a generalisation like that. Or perhaps I'm not getting an important detail?

By that simple logic, the wider the FFs are apart, the deeper the sound, because there are more long fibres running the length of the bass. Simple as that. But it's not that simple is it? Your cornerless has ffs quite close together. So WHERE are the long fibres? At the edges? Nope, because they are "cut" by the arching at the C bouts outside the FFs. In the centre? Perhaps, up to the edges of the FFs and along the flat part of the long arch before it drops at each end. But then, a bass with more widely spaced ffs would be deeper. But you know that is not always the case, is it?

Or maybe are you talking about RIB fibres? A cornerless has way long interrupted rib fibres, yes. But i don't think this is what you mean.

Or maybe the fibres above the lower eye of the ffs? Yes, with wider centre bout there is more uninterrupted wood above the outside of the FFs, relatively speaking, but the fibres themselves are probably no longer as they have been cut by the arch carving.

The only way to get longer fibres is to BEND the plates a la Bill Fulton. But we don't see that very often.

So, I think that when it comes to doubles basses, one generalises at one's peril! :D

Well, I just thought, a flat BACK plate with wider C bouts would have longer fibres, yes. And you did say this. So perhaps THIS is where your theory is based. But not IMO on the top plate, or a carved back. It's too curvy to have many continuous fibres.

well..
 

I don't know. It's getting confusing. The Cornerless has a sound to die for and the Copy will get there in time and IT has corners with a round back. The only close copy part is the Scroll and the Top with the exception of the corners.

So, I will go to sleep tonight not worrying about this theory or science at all. Why, I have the bass to play on and for whatever reasons (if none that I've mentioned), it's one of the best sounding basses money can buy. :)

if interested..
 

On the Spanish family Guillami of 2 or 3 generations my C.Stainer book (over 100 years old dated 1/11/95 on the back) was a reference; "GUILLAMI, Spanish family of Violin-makers, about 1680-1780." This reference by date includes J.B. , the eldest listed maker also listed by Henley.

Just now I found a link on line listing Italian makers and found the exact same quote, obviously copied from C.Stainer.

2 cornerless clips..
 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtIJq...mbedded#at=338

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAGFD...layer_embedded

and just found this..
 

Such flat arching on that bass Edicson Ruiz is playing!

Also you get a bit better look at the other bass here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kq5Vm...eature=related

big pictures of edicsons bass you can see here:
http://www.edicsonruiz.com/en/gallery.php

(also pics of the threestring version)

humm..
 

Edison's looks slight small and the other bass, even smaller.

My Bass although fits in a 3/4 bag is not that small of a bass. If the shoulders were wider, it would need a 7/8ths case.

Also, the sound of those basses do not sound like deep full toned Orchestra basses. Maybe it's the strings but with the speakers I have here, they both sound on the thin side.

Cornerless Videos..
 

Folks, it doesn't get much better than this..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMsGN...mbedded#at=304

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04y20...mbedded#at=271

yeah but can they swing?:cool:

countdown..
 

My new Desktop Background.. http://www.smithbassforums.com/attac...4&d=1299905555

is coming home today..:)

Nice work. That's quite a change!

http://www.smithbassforums.com/attac...4&d=1299905555

http://www.kensmithbasses.com/double...eel_detail.jpg

change..
 

Yes, indeed it is and thanks for the appreciation. I have been on the 'owner end' of a few 'Block-Cuts' by Arnold but this by far is the most beautiful. The wide Ebony Caps are reminiscent of my Candi which was done that way when the bass was originally made. Arnold had to repair and replace some of that capping when the neck graft was done.

Arnold is welcome to discuss any of the 'inside skinny' concerning this restoration but like surgery on humans, I doubt the patient wants all the gory details of what happened inside while he was asleep.:eek:

In this case, I have seen plenty and little scares me at this point as far as basses go. ;)

I recall Phil Manieri's comment awhile ago, that the "Storioni" was "just sick" to play (indescribably beyond good), even before the restoration.

I look forward to hearing about how the bass plays, now...

Such lovely work! Beautifully conceived and wonderfully executed...

Ken, thanks for sharing those photos...

Ken, was the bass slightly cut to make the shorter string length possible?

I've been curious, since I first saw it, about that before restoration button pic, the purfling, center seam strip, etc. are off center to the neck. Now everything looks on center. What's the story with that?

ok..
 

The Neck Block area was cut to reduce the string length and also the new neck is a regular size as opposed to the longer Eb length from before.

The old button cap is not original. The neck before this one had a different button and THAT was not original either. It had a purfled design in it still on the old broken neck but does not match the purfling of the bass.

The center strip is vertical grain maple with outer ebony strips. This is actually an inlay in the back and does not go all the way thru. Inside the back under the center strips we were able to see the clean jointed original back center. Only after the bass was taken apart did we find out that the center strip was inlaid 'into' and over the center joint of the back.

Arnold did a fantastic job modifying the bass and cleaning it all up to look at original and cosmetically pleasing to the naked eye.

The sound is still there. I took off the set of Original Flat chromes that were on as a test and switched it to Belcantos (both sets used). With the Bel's, the bass sounds amazing just like before but mush easier to play.:)

After consideration and knowledge learned about the bass, I am re-naming it 'back' to its 45 year attribution of Storioni.

I'm interested to hear how Arnold approached stabilising the burled maple ribs. They looked very fragile from the outside.

how?
 

I don't think 'stabilizing' was an issue here. The two-part Ribs held up very well over its 200+ year old life. The thinner outer burled maple had cracked in several areas and with some blistering as well. A small piece or two around the sides were replaced. The inner Spruce layer was in very good condition as were the linings for the most part.

Arnold did point out one interesting thing here. The endpin hole was way off center. If measuring the long side, hole center to plate, then doubling that number comes to over 9" in depth. IF that were the case, then somewhere along the line before we were all born, the Rib depth of this Bass was cut down to its current depth. This is just a guess as we were not there back then and do not see enough evidence to certify that as fact.

Maybe Arnold will come up and explain in detail but I know he went around the Ribs working small areas at a time each day until it was all re-glued where ever necessary. I assume glue and clamps were used and maybe some non-stick material was used as a caul between the ribs and clamps for pressing any areas that were blistering. It looks very good now. ;)

Maybe in 200 years it will need some more repairs so someone write this down so we don't forget how to when that time rolls around!:eek:

Ken,
Is the hole nearer to the top or the back? How was the back edge in that area?

The hole was towards the front. http://www.kensmithbasses.com/double...ges/full_L.jpg

The back edge looked fine I believe but the center strip was falling apart at the bottom. Arnold repaired the center down there.

New photos? I can hardly wait...

pics?
 

I am kind of busy between work and playing the bass. When the web page is up, I will post the link but, it will be the same page as now, just modified with new pics.

I played it last night after a few personal tweaks (I had to force myself to put the bass down and go home as 2am was rolling around). I wish all basses had this kind of tone. The new neck is beautiful and the bass plays so easy. Now I have to start practicing to get used to the bass and be worthy of owning an instrument like this to play personally.

Actually, the linings on the back side were shot and were replaced.

I could not figure another reason why the endpin was so far off-center.

I lanced all the openings, injected hot hide glue and clamped using lucite strips to flatten the areas.

thanks. I assume the spruce doubling on the ribs was cross-grain?

yes..
 

The grain runs across Top to Back, bent along its grain lines from Block to Block.

Speculation: if the ribs were narrowed, it would seem to me more likely that a luthier would narrow them from the back; otherwise it would take a lot of re-engineering of the neck block instead of just a trim of the button side of the heel, which unless there were grave structural problems with the "top" side of the ribs would not be a cost effective modification to the bass, or any bass. And if it were trimmed from the rear, then the peg, assuming centered originally, would be farther back than forward.

I vote for it "always having been that way."

Please correct me if my reasoning is not sound (pun intended).

except that the front is flat, so to me it would be easier to re-engineer the front than the bent back. But I reckon it was installed that way. I don't always put the endpin dead centre. It depends how the bass balance feels.

???
 

I have no idea. In fact, when I got the bass it was such a joy to play sitting OR standing I never gave it an ounce of thought until Arnold mentioned it. I thought it was just that way! Also, it's not the first old Bass I'd acquired where the endpin was not exactly centered.

These are very old basses, made with 3 gut strings originally when playing bass music was much simpler. Mozart was new music then so go figure. What a particular repairman did later on while modifying some old bass to modern standards, who knows what alterations these guys did.

Remember, the violin in Strads time had a pitched maple fingerboard, not a pitched back neck with overstand. Many old Basses have the necks still just barely sticking out from the body and pitched back for the string height. Back then, who really cared about the 'fixed' peg endpin hole?

I don't think this is the case,as the back edge was almost fine, but (maybe) some old instruments were played without an endpin, with the back edge on the floor, sometimes with a clog. A Busan bass in the Elgar book has a clog glued on the back, and I saw another one in person. If so, it make sense to move the endbutton towards the top to prevent it from touching the floor. They were not so tall, back then...

well..
 

I took the Storioni out to rehearsal on Sunday for a later May program with another Orchestra and then again Monday and Thursday for Saturday, tomorrows concert with my Orchestra. The bass sounded great but too much foot traffic on stage for my comfort concerning its safety. So tonight (Friday), I brought my Mittenwald bass (attr. L.Neuner) instead and it did just fine.

Yesterday we had the first run thru with the soloist, Pianist Simon Tedeschi from Australia, a Gershwin specialist. We are doing the Bernstein version of 'Rhapsody in Blue' with him.

While warming up early (as I was as well) he started playing a few jazz heads. I tried from across the stage doodle along with him. On his drive back to the hotel, the chaperon (a board member) mentions that I was a Jazz player and such in conversation. He tells me when he got back for the 2nd half of the rehearsal (Shostakovich 5th) that maybe I should do a tune with him for the encore. I said "sure, we can rehearse Saturday afternoon before the concert".;) Tonight the conductor walks over and asks me to do a tune with him and he calls across the stage to ask which tune and Simon says 'Blue Monk'. After the Gershwin run thru I walk over with the bass and go over how he wants it and asked him to write out what I should do for the unison melody being that it was our only rehearsal, those 10 minutes. Then he asks, "do you know "the Preacher by Horace Silver? It might be better being that we are playing in a Church". I smile and say 'Yes' playing a bit of it and then I say "in 1969, I won the audition and one of my first gigs was playing with Horace". So he was thrilled and now he can announce I played with H.S. but I did remind him that in '69, 'The Preacher' wasn't a tune we did in Concert as Horace would usually play the newest tunes to promote his latest record.

It just so happens that the Neuner bass is a great Jazz sounding instrument as well. Very deep, punchy, pingy and loud enough to do the duo without an amp. I think if I played the Storioni, it might turn a few heads too many when I walk across stage for the encore with a giant looking Guitar and take attention away from the music. Carrying it with no corners to grab is also not so easy as one might imagine. The basses are tucked in the back along side the Cellos, just behind the Violas, and not across the back as usual. This is so the Tymp. player can be closer and not behind us directly. I am actually forward of the 3rd Cello row, just behind the second row Violas. Walking out for the Piano/Bass duo would be the first time they see a bass full view up close with this stage set-up as I walk between the Cellos and Violas, over the podium and stand next to the left hand side of the Piano. Kind of a first for me within an Orchestra Gig. The Nuener will handle the job just fine and not attract as much attention if at all as far as the actual bass goes.

Matt, do you know this guy? I hear is is quite famous in your land and around the world.

Yes Simon Tedeschi is well known here. But I must confess, I've never heard him play.

He's really a great player. My first time hearing him and hearing 'of' him as well. If in your area, he's definitely worth the ticket to go see and hear.

Now, back on topic. Later today I well run back to the shop and try the Storioni as a jazz bass and if I think she's ready for the task, switch her out in my case with the Neuner. Why not go all the way, right?;)

[quote=Ken Smith;22417

Now, back on topic. Later today I well run back to the shop and try the Storioni as a jazz bass and if I think she's ready for the task, switch her out in my case with the Neuner. Why not go all the way, right?;)[/quote]
Put on the Spiros!

spiros?
 

Arnold, she growls just fine with the Bels and bows fantastic.. :cool:

ok..
 

I brought the Storioni last night as I mentioned I was considering. Friday night rehearsals are always a bit hectic with people rushing thru traffic to get there on time so running across the stage the last minute and often thru the bass section is something I don't like while I'm playing or if my bass is lying down or on a chair. That's the main reason I didn't bring the Storioni on Friday.

While I was warming up last night my stand partner was about 100 feel behind me off stage trying to tune his bass with a Tuner. He has a nice '80s full sized Pollmann (Maggini/Panormo/Fendt model) with round back and sounds quite good. He told me later when we were packing up in the end that while he was trying to tune, my bass was registering on his tuner, every note I was playing. He also mentioned with a smile that I was in tune as well. Wow, what a relief.. lol

So, the bass is loud but carries thru the house as well. After the Gershwin with Piano and Orchestra the soloist did a bit more on his own and then announced me and invited me up. We did 'The Preacher' with a Piano intro and chorus solo and then I came in, no amp and, I had lowered my strings slightly from Orchestra set up in case he puts me on the spot to solo. He did, and I played two choruses, never struggling to get the sound out as I was confident I was being heard. The audience loved that Duo more then most of the program from what I had heard back.

For the 2nd half I raised the bridge back up a 1/4 turn and finished up the concert. My stand partner mentioned how loud my bass was and regardless of being to the right of me, can hear my bass over his which made him dig in a bit more where needed.

So, the Storioni is sounding better by the day after massive surgery and unlike a few people were concerned about, it didn't loose its 'golden' sound. In fact, it rings more than even from what I remember. Thanks Arnold, job well done! ;)

I really identify with this! You lay a bass down and everybody seems to head towards it like a magnet! Some idiot violinist knocked my bass over at a gig recently. Funnily enough I'd gone to the bar to get her a drink - I was reluctant to leave my bass, but she was a guest at my 91 year old Aunty's birthday.