Help with my String/Bridge Height
 

Hi all, so I recently had my bridge re-cut since the E string side was far too low...Unfortunately, the problem has not been fixed so I decided to take measurements and see what you all think of this.

Height from belly to the top of the string at bridge:
G - 16 cm
D - 17 cm
A - 17 cm
E - 16.5 cm

Height from end of fingerboard to the very under part of the string:
G - 4 mm
D - 6.5 mm
A - 6 mm
E - 5.5 mm


From reading all the posts on this server it seems that my strings are not consistent in height at all...

I like 4mm for the G, but the 2.5 mm height increase on the D seems like too much of a gap. I also need way more than 5.5 mm on the E string, it seems that it should be at least 7 mm...

I also noticed that the strings aren't exactly IN the grooves at the bridge. The G string fits in nicely, with space due to how thin it is...But the D, A and E are somewhat over the slots.

My nut spacing between strings is perfect at 10 mm, and the height is consistent.

Also, the spacing between the strings at the bridge is consistent at 25 mm.

yikes..
 

Your heights under teh fingerboard are way out of whack from anything I've seen or heard of. The G is the lowest and the E the highest with a 1-1.5nn progression on average or 2mm at the most. Up and down doesn't work for playing the Bass and for the tone, you must be overworking there trying to play that bass.

25mm spoacing is tight for a 5-string for bowing. 26-27 is better. For a 4-string orchestra bass, 26mm minimum to about 2 mm is the average, the 26mm being tight. 9-10mm or 3/8" at the nut is fine. Height under the string at the Nut should be a business card above 'zero'.

Sounds like this bass you have is in need of a 'bass player's' set-up. If playing solo only, the 25mm might work but with those heights, I can see now why you have been hunting for strings.

Come here if you can and play some of the basses here known by players as the best set-up group of basses at any shop on average. All of them are my basses and all were done for easy of playing with the bow, fingers, solo, orchestra, jazz etc. combined.

Did you ever read Arnold's set-up measurements here on the Forum? Introduced here.

Numbers are just that, numbers. I don't have the exact set-up numbers on every bass. What I do shoot for is the best set-up for each bass. Fingerboard curve/arch and camber/relief also play a huge factor in my mind. I like my boards a tad less than straight as far as the relief goes.

In my opinion, once you know the best numbers for your bass and playing, the communication with your Luthier will improve. The problem arises sometimes when other things on a bass do not allow the optimum set-up. Neck over stand and fingerboard shape play a role here as well. the straightness of the neck under the fingerboard is at least equally important. The neck reinforced with CF graphite is always a plus for that.

The music on the bass is so hard for our large instrument. Fighting the bass itself with a bad set-up or other inherent problems just takes the fun out of playing, totally. :(

If the G is 4mm then I would try for 4/5/6/7 (low arch) or 4/5.5/7/8.5 (bigger arch) or something close to 4-8 or so and increase all the numbers if the G is higher. The FB curve must follow the bridge to some degree.

What Ken said...

Thank you VERY much for your reply. It seems that I definitely need to get the bridge/fingerboard plained correctly once and for all. I must admit it is a bit of a chore playing in thumb position considering the heights are so out of whack...I also can't really dig into the E string because of how low it is.

I had an audition the other day, and I actually got to the finals but the committee told me to raise my string heights...ha!

It's a bit tough in this city to find a repair person who also plays bass. Most of them are violinists at general music stores.

It seems 4,5,6,7 would be good, now I just need to find someone to do it!

Calvin, 4mm under your G string is not going to allow you to bow aggressively. Typically, classical players keep the G at about 6mm. Good luck with your set-up, hope you find someone to get it right for you...

I like the 4mm on the G cause I'm playing a lot of solo repertoire. In order to win a job you need to play orchestral excerpts and a concerto/solo Bach. I could easily do the excerpts at 6mm+ on the G, but definitely not anything solo related.

If I had a job already I'd set my bass up with G at 7mm, but I don't really have that option.

4mm?
 

When people try my basses here at 4-5mm, they ask me to raise it for them. My Martini is about 4mm and a tight feeling bass as far as the tension goes. If it was not as tight, 5mm would work better. With Flexocor or BelCantos, 4mm is fine for me but with Evah's, 5mm works better. These being the lowest possible heights for playing softly. For digging in, they need to be higher and my FB camber/curve is nearly flat. My Gilkes (Jilkes) has a bigger camber just due to the wood settling itself in the neck and FB and is usually tight as well. That Bass plays better slightly higher than the Martini. Go figure..

Arnold (above) has worked on both of these basses and has seen many many top pros play on them in his shop. He can go into better detail as far as the various heights here and there vs the playability soft thru heavy playing.

Now, if you just bought some old German shop bass with a long Eb neck and a thinned fingerboard I could understand you having problems due to the bass being out of repair set-up wise but, I am under the impression here that you have a brand new handmade bass. In my opinion, we should not be having this discussion. It is no rocket science to get a bass to play fairly well especially if it just left the makers hands. Did someone mess with the bass since it was made or has been fiddled with over and over by someone else who is not qualified to be doing so?

I have to say that between strings and set-up issues, you have been on at least 2 forums 'hunting' for answers way more than you did about the actual build of the bass before hand.

Please fill us in on how you got to this point and condition of bass IF we are talking about the new one you just had made.

Same bass. It came with these string heights from the maker. I also put in about 2 years of research as to what I exactly wanted, and I got that, apart from the fingerboard camber issues. I'm honestly just looking for advice. You guys are used to playing great basses, so all I want are answers.

so all I want are answers?
 

Playing even a Plywood bass, it must be set-up correctly. Bad set-up is just that, bad unplayable set-up. Even a 100k bass can have a bad set-up.

If you want answers and demand them to guide you perfectly, HIRE a Bass set-up consultant. Short of that, you are stuck with the answers given on the Forums. Sorry!

Ken, what's with the hostility?

I don't demand anything. I share my experiences and hope that someone like yourself or Arnold will shine some light onto this scenario as you both have experience with bass set-ups.

I don't know of any "set-up consultants", at least in my area. Perhaps the best solution is to pack my bass up and drive south of the border and get it set-up properly once and for all.

I didn't see any hostility in Ken's post(s), although he did write "suck" as a typo for "stuck" (I hope! :D).

And I think you answered your own question. The forums can only answer so much, IMO.

You guys are used to playing great basses, so all I want are answers.
 

I was just responding to your statement; I have you a huge first reply with all the details in a set-up and Arnold agreed 'what I said'. There is nothing more I can ad to it without having the bass in my hands if there is even more to say.

Doesn't Edgar Meyer and Jeff Bradetich play with super low action? Probably much lower than 4mm on the G.

lol..
 

Yes, Typo.. 'sTuck' was the word.. sorry.. Thanks for pointing that out..

??
 

I don't know what they use but they play the bass the play with the action the use. Is that the string height they would use in your shoes looking for a job in an Orchestra or did it take years to get to that and an instrument and set-up to match?

I can't answer you on that. Jeff and I were staying at the same hotel last week at the ISB by chance. Maybe had you asked me 2 weeks ago, I could of asked him one morning at breakfast!

Calvin, it's important that the fingerboard arch be set properly before the bridge curvature can be worked out. If the fingerboard is too flat (cross-ways) the outside strings will have to be low or you won't be able to bow the bass. If you are going to use 25mm spacing at the bridge, which is quite narrow (27-28 is "normal"), the fingerboard will need to be more arched than usual. I hope this is clear and helpful...

Thank you for the reply. Very clear, very helpful. The bass came with 25mm, and it bows fine, so I'll leave it that way. Seems that I need the fingerboard plained properly and then the bridge set-up in accordance with 4,5,6,7or8.

Should the strings fit IN the bridge/nut grooves or over? My G-string if fairly thin in gauge (Pirastro Flat-Chromesteel) so it has a lot of space in the bridge slot, whereas the rest of the strings are on top of the groove.

I like the strings to sit about 3/4 of the way down into the groove. And I want the groove a few thousandths wider than the string. (Don't you just hate words like "thousandths" with five consonants in a row? Doesn't exactly roll off the tongue, does it?)

Are there any tools you can use to do this yourself? (the bridge filing, grooving).. Would I just need a rat-file and some graphite and a micro-ruler?

A thin needle-type file is one handy tool. If you get yourself a FB planing and a new bridge, I'd recommend getting a slightly high-ish cut, as some luthiers do seem to think that as long as it doesn't rattle, the string should be as low as possible. With one of these, it's a piece of cake to file off some excess wood. (But some carefulness is advised, as wood can be filed away but not put back!) If you think you have filed them too far into the bridge, any luthier will be able to file down the bridge until your strings rest as deep down in the grooves as you want 'em. You could even do this yourself if you're not afraid of a displaced sound post of misplaced bridge - I sure as hell wouldn't, but that's just me. You'll also become every other student's best friend, as you're hardly the only one with setup issues! :)

Anyways, if you think you couldn't handle higher strings for solo playing in thumb position, you MAY have a slightly too concave fingerboard. I played this one bass that had been set up by a violin specialized luthier. You couldn't play it as the vertical shape of the FB made each string rise very steeply. And yet you couldn't file down the bridge, because then the strings would rattle against the end of the FB. Consequently, the string height at the en of the FB was very (too) low but at the highest spot, I'm not joking when I say it was at least 15mm even on the G. If you have noticed even the slightest tendency towards this, a planing is indeed to be considered. It sounds strange that there should be no good bass guy in the area. Where does Joel Q repair his instruments, for instance? Send him a mail, for all I know. I think you can do that if you click on his profile.

Oh, and! Congrats on the successful audition! It was your first, right?
http://www.horolap.com/images/0203a.pjpeg

Thanks to Joel and Arnold for the great advice. Much appreciated, guys!

FB
 

Calvin,
your fingerboard is too flat for the string spacing / bridge curvature you like, as Arnold said.

If you will make it planed with the same curvature of your present bridge, you will not lower as now the A and the d strings when you press them to the fingerboard in high positions.

The more the fingerboard is concave, the more this effect is noticeable

So, probably you will need less bridge curvature for the same bowing.

A way is to plane the fingerboard with a bit less arch than the one of your present bridge, and then to set up the bridge again.

Find a good luthier to do this.
A good luthier is someone who can listen you, realize what you really need, share with you his opinions and make the work.

Is the fingerboard thick enough to plane it?
Have you adjusters on your bridge?
Are you going to play soon for auditions?

Thanks for the great info. I was just on the phone with the bass maker, he suggested the ideal height for the G string to be 5mm and that I should do the following:

Raise both adjusters so the E string has 8mm clearance, then file down the bridge notches until the strings are: G-5,D-6,A-7...After that he told me to use 120 grit sandpaper and gently file down the bridge until the strings are 50-75% in the grooves.

??..
 

For Bowing a Bass, a Flatter arch will NOT work as the Bow will hit 2 strings at the same time on the middle D and A. There is a minimum arch you need for bow clearance. Slide a long pencil along the top of the bridge touching the G and A string. Eyeball the height of the D to see that arch. Do the same with the E and D and look at the A-string clearance.

If I had a dollar for every Bridge top, height and or Arch I have re-cut in my life it would be more than.. Dinner at a nice restaurant. I work on almost every bridge of every bass I play to tweak it just right. If the Fingerboard is not right then get that fixed as well but never match the Bridge to a bad fingerboard. That will only cost you a new bridge later on. Maybe doing both at the same time is best but Bridges can be saved sometimes.

As I mentioned before, a 1-1.5 mm height graduation is what works best but that depends on the board as well under the strings.

I measured a bass yesterday as several points and the relations between strings are similar up and down the board showing a good arch from nut to bridge.

More playing and less fixing is always best. Get it done right the first time and get back to playing..;)

Hey Ken, what did you mean by this?
Thanks.

This means that the Strings at the Nut should just be above the fingerboard a slight amount so pressing down in the lower positions is not excessive work. Playing a Forte open string should be the test. The Bass should not buzz much if at all at the Nut/Fingerboard joint if played fairly hard. Actually, my basses do usually on some strings because I do not set-up the bass for open string playing. Leaving the string high at the nut makes the string height higher up and down the fingerboard when pressing down from the open string. It also adds tension to the string as well.

If the bass has more scoop starting at the Nut then you can almost file the Nut down to the fingerboard itself like I do. On my basses, you can barely slide a piece of paper under the string by the nut. The general ruls is 1 or 2 business cards. Anything more is just extra work playing the bass. I prefer lower but that;'s just me!

I played a friends old Kay yesterday and the nut slots were so low I couldn't get a business card within 1/2" of the nut and the bass played great. I wouldn't tempt fate like that, but whadayaknow?

well..
 

I can't slide a piece of paper under some of mine either and they play like butter. The Camber/fb curve makes up for this.

Hi all, so I decided to try plaining the bridge myself and am very pleased with the results. It was slightly more labor intensive than I thought it would be, but I suppose that makes sense considering how out of whack the string heights were to begin with.

This process took me 5 hours and I used some 120 grit sandpaper and a few different shaped rat-files.

I raised the adjusters to give me 9 mm on the E and then I began lowering the grooves. Once I got to 5.5/7/8/9 I had to sand off the top of the bridge...Really tiring work.

I decided to go for 5.5 instead of 6 on the G because I needed a bit more clearance from the D string.


Overall, I'm really happy with the results and I have all of you to thank!

Ken, do you need to file the entire nut down in height or can you make a "slope" (ie. angled lower at the edge)?

Thanks.

humm..
 

I am not sure of your exact question but I will tell you how I file a nut. The strings enter straight in from the fingerboard and are angled back to the tuners or the other way around but one end of the Nut goes to a straight pull and the other an angle. The slot must follow the angle. I use a jewelers rat-tail file. Nicholson's are the easiest for me to fine here but "Swissmade' are as good but impossible to deal with that company.

The string should not be under the surface of the Nut but like the bridge, 1/2 -3/4 the depth of the string diameter. Same diameter rules to be used as on the Bridge, just the other anchor end and different wood. As you file deep, stop and rasp off or file off (depending and using a flat file of sorts) the excess ebony so the slot is not so deep. When all done, sand and polish it carefully and oil up the Nut.

Be careful not to slip with the file and hit the bass with it. Also, wear glasses or safety goggles. If you pull out of the slot quickly while filing fast and jam the file tip into the edge of the Nut missing the slot, the tip of the file can break off and go in your eye. I have had tips hit my face and forehead. I count my blessings.

Now, please do not get my next statement confused with something else.. ok? :cool:

I have handled more Nuts in my life than most Double Bass Lutheirs..:eek:

You know.. the Nut for the strings.. lol.

In my Electric Bass Business, I have handled over 5,800 in Brass alone. Brass Nuts.. Try them on for size..:mad:

The Ebony DB Nuts are easy for me in comparison to cutting Brass. I made a wide stepped Nut of Ebony for my Carl Thompson Electric Bass back in 1973/4 way before I started my business. Carl asked me NOT so Show off my NUT because everyone else will want one. Just one Ebony NUT, what harm can that do?.. ;)

So, filing the Nut slots from the FB to the peg box it's at an angle. The Nut shape will follow that pattern or it will be too high over the strings.

I made this temporary Nut the day I bought the Bass. Simple but functional. Note the gentle slope/angle from front to back, fb to peg. It stayed on the Bass till Arnold chopped the Neck off and be-headded the Scroll/Pegbox for its restoration. When it's done, it will have a new Grafted Neck, a C-extension and a new Nut for 3 of the Strings next to the Extension as usual.
http://www.kensmithbasses.com/double.../scroll_fr.jpg

Thank you VERY much.