Richard's Serious Thread About Getting Better on the Double Bass.
 

My life goal is to have my double bass playing down by the age of seventy five, eighteen years to go, and then I'll probably die. When I practise, or play a gig, I always try to isolate things that may be holding me back. Lately, for example, I've had a problem with not stopping the notes (with my left hand) firmly enough - this results in occasional squeaks and mainly occurs up the neck. I'm getting this one under control. I generally am pretty good at staying in tune, but there is one piece in my repertoire that I stray on - I'm presently dealing to this.
I also have a tendency to speed up. There, I've told you all my faults!
I think if someone asked me,
"Richard, what are, in your opinion, the most important aspects of double bass playing?"
I would reply,
"Obviously playing in tune and timing are vital. If you want people to like your playing, tone and phrasing come next."
I've just been reading an old book by Shinichi Suzuki (written in the 80s). He talks about how an infant learns language and how music can be learnt in the same way. He emphasizes practice - lots of it, and enjoying it. I probably do about an hour or two about every second or third day, and less on the other one or two, so my next endeavour will be to regularly go for three hours. Obviously what you practise is important.
So, this thread is a chance to talk about getting better on the big fiddle.
Don't be shy, have your say. Remember the old saying,
"Many hands make light work."

moved..
 

I moved this here to the Music section of the DB rather than leaving it in the instrument section in which it started.

how to improve?
 

Ok, here's my take on it. The DB is a life study that you can never perfect all aspects of it. That being the case, I suggest you have a teacher evaluate your playing and start you on the road to improving what you have first.

At the recent ISB in Pa. I asked two bass players (both better than me) to look at my playing and give me something to work on. I had sorts asked for a 'mini lesson'. The reason for the 'mini' is that I just wanted one or two thinks at most pointed out in my playing that needed to be improved.

I basically played an audition for each of them for a minute or so and then waited for a response. These are both pro Symphony players by the way.

What did they each tell me or give me to work on? Well, that's bassically a doctor/patient condiferntiality thing..;)

The point being.. I asked and I got some help. After watching some great players over the last few years I came to realize that there is no such thing as perfection. So, just enjoy yourself. The better you get, the better you wanna get.. It's kinda addictive..

Here's a question - I've seen a couple of the regulars talk about pitch issues; I know Ken discussed this as a problem when switching between several basses for gigs. I'd like to know how serious these issues are - are you talking about quarter tones, or just the sort of thing where you can 'think' a slightly flat note into tune by rolling a finger just a bit...

I know that whenever I can spend an hour or so just working on intonation, it audibly improves - especially when doing major position shifts. But when other work interferes with practice (as it can do for months at a time), I tend to slide into notes a lot more when I move up and down the neck.

Ken, my dear friend, did you know that the national emblem of NZ is a silver fern? Maybe your two bass players were from Down here (NZ)! :D

It sounds a bit like we're both really saying the same thing - seek advice, practice hard and play for life. I take note on your advice of visiting a teacher - good point.

Dave, my friend, I personally find that intonation, time, tone and phrasing are things that bite me if I don't pay attention to them. You don't have to be far out of tune to sound out of tune. My two basses are different sizes, but I think it's not too hard to readjust to the smaller one, which I don't play much at present. I guess it would be harder to use several different sized basses regularly. Intonation is by degrees. If someone is regularly a quarter tone out, well that's a problem - a sign that no listening is happening.

talk about pitch..
 

I can't tell you a specific measure of intonation issues. I can tell you this. When you pick up a bass and play a few regular licks and 'miss' either short or long on some of the notes, it's just plain out of tune. Playing the same bass even if the string length is the same, helps to play in tune with your hand and fingers knowing just where to go.

Currently I am playing only my Hart Bass as far as gigs and practice go. I do 'doodle' on the other basses for 'inventory testing' purposes but for actual playing, it's the Hart. The only exception is practicing at home on my 3/4 Shen/Gemunder which I have had since 1997.

Playing just one main bass makes a big difference to me ear. At home, I mainly just practice to learn the parts. I don't think all that much about intonation. It's fairly good on the Shen so I just concentrate on the music.

Ear training is the key to improving intonation. Audiation, or internalizing pitch is the key to putting your finger in the right place. Think about a dartboard- the bullseye is the correct pitch. If you are not on the bullseye, how close are you? If you are playing an instrument without having a good intonation target it is like playing darts with your eyes closed. Someone will get hurt!!:eek:

Professional players make intonation mistakes, but very minute ones. Students miss by a mile. What is the key? Ear training. You must sing!

My other necessary intonation work is developing the right concept of intonation. Students don't listen for intonation the same way that people that have good intonation. Most times, if you ask a student to play a scale and they miss a note, they progressively get worse as they go up and down the scale. If they play an open string they may correct, but the whole of the scale is wrong.

People with good intonation listen to the intervallic relationship between tonic (the first degree of the scale) and the note they are playing. It doesn't matter if you miss one note, because the next can be in tune based on the relationship of that note to tonic. To practice this, I always have students use a drone when they play scales. It immediately snaps their pitch into place. I can hear that drone in my head and when I practice sometimes I will drone a pitch and sing the scale, or drone the pitch with my voice and play the scale.

Give it a try and let me know how it works for you.

Best,
Brian

Brian, you can be assured that I'll be trying this. Thanks for the thoughts.

also..
 

Richard, if you can, find a community Orchestra that you can join. Trust me when I say this.. You will learn things that you would never imagined to try on the bass on your own. It will raise your DB playing awareness to a height you didn't know was there. The Orchestra Rep. is the way to learn more about your bass. That's assuming you haven't gone that route already.

Thanks Ken, I've done the orchestra thing. I don't really have any interest in playing in a community orchestra. It's improvised music for me these days, but I understand your point. Playing those Bach cello suites gives one a wake up call too.

not just...
 

Richard, that's just my point. In improvised music you play what you want 'when' you want. In Orchestra music, you play what 'they' want, when they want and how fast they want. They and tem meaning the composers and conductors.

I am doing Mendelssohn's 4th (Italian) now. I just U-tubed it and holy xxxx. Triplets at 160 a beat. All over the Bass. Now that will put some hair on your bow. Actually, it's the left hand that goes to the Barber on that one.

Playing the Orchestra Rep. trains my hands to be so fast, I can't even see my own fingers move. It's just a blur sometimes but the notes keep flying out somehow.

I don't know what you got out of the Orchestra thing but for me, it's the ultimate workout. I will get only 3 rehearsals with the Orchestra and I have about a month to get it ready along with two other Pieces. Haydn's Farewell with a Bass solo at the end..

I hear you, my friend. I started my musical life as a violinist. I played in orchestras and graduated with an honours degree (all that seems another life time ago now). I've since played the bass in orchestras, though not big serious ones. I had my first bass lesson in 1976 and later took a few lessons with Harry Botham (ex LSO). I never had that many lessons on the bass - 'I'm formally self taught' to quote Jaco. I am eternally grateful for my classical training and would advise any youngster to get formal training, but I'm not interested in playing classical any more. I played an hour gig (to about eight people) last night. Just me and my bass - I called on a lot of skills and played pretty well (I think - I'm pretty honest with myself; after all I confess to having played some shockers in the past!).
Lately I've played with two excellent classical violinists - one plays in the NZSO and another was once concertmaster of the Tasmanian Symphony (I hope I've got that right). Both have beautiful tones and can read fly sh1t on a bathroom wall. The ex-TSO player runs a gypsy jazz band and has all her solos written out. I hadn't played with her for a long while, but was able to whistle along with her solos! The other guy played some jazz standards, in his repertoire, that consisted of him playing the tune about three times - no solos from anyone! In my humble opinion, both of these players were out of their depth when it came to playing a jazz style gig. All I'm saying is that there are two sides to the coin, both requiring a set of skills. The classical playing will only help the improvising player to a point - I don't remember Coltrane or Miles playing in many orchestras.
I'd better go, but I hope all is well in Perkasie my friend.

I'll second that. My current teacher tells me to stop playing and punish myself every time I realise that I've stopped singing.

I'll go on for a bit about what my last six lessons (YES, it's that important):
Fix your hand shape. I always used to be able to play chromatic 5ths up and down the bass fairly well in tune, but now with this teacher I've noticed that it's just not that simple, because I didn't apply it to the rest of my playing. The ear is easily corrupted... and if your first position is to small between the 1st and 4th finger - which I was shocked to realise was my case - even if you make a perfect semitone shift up from say B to C, you're out of tune, because you were out of tune in the first place. Myself, I found out that even though I always considered my intonation to be 'good enough', on the G string I was consequently low on B and consequently I was still low after shifting to C. This I had gotten so used to that I considered them to be in tune. As a result, my 3rd pos shape was too big in order to reach D, which was usually rather well in tune thanks to the easy check with an open D. E with 4th finger was too high as my shape was still too big, and E with 1st finger was usually was too low - especially when coming down - for the very same reason. All this was integrated in my playing and in my ears.

A key, as Brian said, is to learn EXACTLY how an interval should sound. Playing with a droning note is nice because you learn where to 'place' your note, but what's probably even more important - as it is what's required of us - is to have a REALLY good idea of what a tempered scale or a perfectly pitched single interval should sound like, and here you may not have any help by that drone, as it might lead you into playing relatively in tune. Which we also have to be able to do. But there is a limit to the practical use of this kind of intonation.

A very good exercise is to play between two open strings, say D E F# G F# E D. Then you can use the open strings as reference points. If you listen properly to that open G, does it sound a bit too high? Then your hand shape is probably too small. Or if the D is sounding low, then the E was already high - and a high first finger in first position is something an awful lot of people do, A on the G string being a frequent problem note, especially when coming down. If you play this exercise, you shouldn't rely on checking the E against the A or E string to see if it's in tune; it can be done, yes, but the point is that you should acquire a perfect sense of where you have a perfect E in relation to the D.
This exercise can and should also be played in thumb pos, and you should also play D E F and D Eb F.

Another common fault is that the hand shape doesn't get small enough when you reach 3rd 4th and 5th pos. It's starting out surprisingly big down in ½ and 1st pos but then decreases surprisingly quickly. But, if you can fix the hand shapes, you'll be sure to improve every element of intonation including shifts.

This is the most important advice I can give you. It has really worked wonders with me during the past month.

Today (after playing for about an hour between shows), I realized that I REALLY need a new set of strings. Mine are no longer playing true notes...

Dave, my friend, you can get them from music shops.

E. Joel, my friend, thanks for sharing your very good advice. When Dave gets some new strings he can try your exercises.

Actually, I'm trying them now (and have been doing a variant of them for some months). Based on today's practice, it IS excellent advice, and I hope to do more with it. I'll be ordering the new strings tomorrow, and ideally, I'll be able to hear what I'm trying to do more successfully.

ok..
 

I hear you Richard. Thanks for filling me in a little more on tour past, musically speaking.

In that case, if all the skills are in line, playing out as much as possible is all I can suggest. Also, playing along with records (now it's CDs:o) always helped me. I enjoyed most with improv stuff using the old Bill Evans records. You can't get more loose and free than with Bill. Things like that if you are not out playing and just wanna practice would be good to do. Also, less lonely than just playing by yourself.

Thanks for your thoughts Ken.
By the way, I'm glad you said 'by' and not 'with'!:D

Dave, I was just teasing about the strings. I've tried E. Joel's exercises too.

I understand what you are saying Joel, but you must be able to play a half step or whole step in tune to be able to play correctly with the drone. What is understood, in my head, is that you are referencing the the tempered scale with the drone in place. Relatively in tune is what we are required to do. If you want to be "exactly" in tune then you need to practice with a chromatic tuner.

I am agreeing with you, but I think a little is lost in typing rather than talking.
BG

Brian, can you give us an example of using this drone? Am I right in assuming that you might play open D, then say the Eb on the G string, then the E - and continue to work up through the intervals?

practicing with a drone
 

i downloaded all the chromatic shrutis here: http://www.karnatik.com/shrutibox.shtml
and use them sometimes for practicing.

edit: practicing as described above by richard + playing scales, improvising
edit2: improvising with that shruti always makes me feel like charlie haden playing the song "malkauns" on the fantastic (one of my favorites) record "brown rice" by don cherry :) )
edit3: please everybody buy that record
listen here: http://www.amazon.de/Brown-Rice-Don-.../dp/B0000253J0

If you can record some drones you can play over them as you work on scales. You can play one, two, or three octaave scales over the drone. Major, minor, modal- it doesn't matter. So you drone a D and then play the d minor scale. You can work certain intervals or areas of the bass that are problematic, such as the "transition position".

I find this approach very helpful. If you have any more questions let me know.
Brian

Call me Ron the silly badger if you like but, couldn't one just check one's scales by playing open notes and harmonics? For example:
C D (open D) E F G (open G) A B C D (harmonic D) etc... bearing in mind that harmonics up the series won't be in tempered tuning. You could even use open strings to check a Db scale - using weirder intervals. Any thoughts?

Yes, well, what I tried to say was that if you play with a drone, you are likely to play what sounds best, i.e. a scale that's relatively in tune. But you must also be able to play in tune in all keys after you stop playing with the drone. You run the risk - and that was/is still my case - of never establishing an intonation that always works, or can work as a reference point to the relatively in tune notes. If you can play a chromatically in tune scale, you can relate all other notes to the ones perfectly in pitch; you must know where an absolute F# is in order to know where to play a low one, or in the end you may not know whether the note you are playing is high, low, or in tune, and that will most likely afftect the next notes as well, as it is easy to deviate from the 'truth' or absolute pitch of the instrument; everything relative needs something absolute in relation to which it is relative, or it could technically speaking not exist. Sorry for getting into philosophy here. :)

I think that the harmonics you should above all avoid are the 5ths and 3rds, as both are low. Octave harmonics are supposed to be rather well in tune, aren't they? Well, anyway, on the G string, you can check almsost every note in the major scale against a secure interval; A with the D or A string, B with the E string, C against open G or double octave harmonic, D against open D, E against A string, and if you're in desperate need of an idea of where your F# is at, check it against open D. But - and here I return to what the purpose is of the exercise I mentioned - you cannot allow yourself to rely on checking against other strings, because that's something you simply won't be able to do when you're fighting in the fields. It can and should be used to see if you have drifted off pitch, but it should always be conscious, not habitual.

I've also been known to check say a Db major scale against some strange intervals - Db against A, F against D, Gb against D, Ab against E and so on. But these are all insecure and most relative intervals - a G# against an E should be a whole lot lower than the Ab against its base Db. Or you could try to establish the sound of an Ab against open D. But you still have to be able to play the scale in tune, without stopping, which you simply won't do if you haven't worked out your hand shape properly, and taken into account that you have to "fight gravity" on the way down. In many cases, it's not the shiftings themselves that seem to be the big issue, but the components therein. Or again, if you have a too big or too small hand, even a perfect shift will make you end up in the wrong place. Hope that helps.

OK, so what you are saying is that the 3rd and 6th scale degrees are the ones to worry about? Unison is perfect, 4th is perfect, 5th is perfect, octave is perfect. Second is one whole step away from the drone, and the seventh is one half step below the drone. The only notes that have a chance to be "imperfect" with the drone are the 3rd and 6th. These are notes which will vary depending on the ensemble you are playing with.

Audiation- or internalizing the pitch, is the key to this. You must always hear the drone! Even when it is no longer playing. Also, I am advocating playing all the scales with it. Chromatic included. I have my students in the Rollez three octave scale study book, which each study concludes in a three octave chromatic scale. The drone works for these too.

The biggest point I am trying to make is: If you can't hear it, you can't play it! Period. I feel that having students work with a drone forces them to play the "right" notes. I have thousands of hours of real time experience with this concept. It works. You can use your open strings, but that limits which scales you can play with the drone and which fingerings you can use. You need an external drone such as this:http://www.navarrorivermusic.com/cello_drones.php

You can make your own with a keyboard, or even turn on a chromatic tuner to listen to.

I guarantee this will improve your intonation, unless you are a top professional player that has perfect pitch. It improved mine. Seven of the ten bass players in our senior region orchestra are my students this year- it works for them. Give it two weeks. If you don't feel it has helped your intonation I will give you your money back!:D

BTW, Joel- Pitch is not absolute... because no one is perfect. We are all relatively in tune or out of tune. Absolute pitch is a concept, not reality.

Brian

Well, I do not question the validity of the drone, only its monopoly. :cool:

Yes, in retrospect, I used the wrong words for the wrong things... a perfectly in tune scale is of course one that is properly intonated, and not tempered at all. Only that the Pythagorean comma very successfully makes perfect impossible... With 'absolute pitch' I refer to in tune with the tuner, i.e. tempered, piano tuning.

I can only further stress your point that 'if you can't hear it, you can't play it.' That was precisely my case. I couldn't hear a tempered 2nd, so I couldn't play a tempered 2nd when required of me. Seconds and sevenths - major or minor - also happens to be those which are easiest to put in the wrong place, because they could be intonated in a huge variety of ways, or so it seems to me. Low major 7th if in a downwards movement, high it it leads to the next note, etc. Now discovering that I was unable even to play an in tune open D to E was alarming, because as a bass player, your most important role is to provide the fundamental note (and I didn't even have the "bread and butter area" at all as clear as I thought I had. :o). For instance, if you have played an A on the G string and are about to play a C#, you may assume that the C# is the 3rd, and so you play a perfect 3rd. If it turned out to be a new base note, you will be almost 4hz or something too low, because base notes are almost always to be played in absolute pitch. (And this in turn could mean that the poor guys playing the 3rd in case it's a major chord have to play their note 8hz lower than usual in order to get it in place! :eek:) This could be a possible problem, since you may not ever have played an 'absolute' A-C# shift if you only play with the drone. Typically, the orchestra won't like you if you play "your own" intervals, neither will the rest of the section. The fixing of hand shapes and becoming able to play absolutely in tune serves to get your left hand in place no matter what. Then, if you know that a note has to be played low in order to sound good, you just play it lower than usual, which - at least in my limited experience - has just proven itself to be much better for my general intonation. Also, it might minimize any bad habits of sliding into place.

That said, if you have the absolute pitch of the instrument perfectly clear and could even play any note in tune without any reference points, you may still not be able to play a perfect 3rd, because you haven't played with a drone or otherwise learned how to intonate according to what's around, or at all learned the basics of intonation. We need drones. We don't want to play with frets! :)

Well Brian and E. Joel have really knocked that nail on the head.
It's probably time to talk about tone.
Here's a starting point...
A good tone, apart from needing a good bow, rosin, bass and strings, might need these ingredients:
a firm left hand with maybe a good vibrato, good bow placement and speed and a smooth transition between each note.

Make that placement, speed and weight/pressure, and you're there. :)

As for placement, somebody told me the other day that "most of the time, you seem to stay in the 'comfort zone' closer to the fingerboard, and then you go towards the bridge only when necessary. You should try to usually stay closer to the bridge, and go closer to the fingerboard only when necessary." Good point. :rolleyes:

Another approach is to move the bow in proportion to the length of string being used.