Breaking in a bass
I think most bassists agree that one reason basses improve with age is the effect of vibration in 'opening up' the bass. Exactly how this occurs I don't know, but I'm guessing there are differing opinions.
Anyway, in an attempt to speed up the process, I've thought of leaving the stereo on while I'm away with a speaker blasting away at my bass.:D Thoughts? Do you think a bass would prefer: Pictures at an Exhibition/Organ transcription Vic Wooten Paul Chambers arco solos James Earl Jones narrating a book I tried this for a bit, but my dog isn't crazy about Russian music, so that almost eliminates number one. My bass may try to pick up some Vic Wooten licks. This would be difficult for a DB to pull off, but maybe worth a try? It would have to have better intonation than Mr PC, but he's surely a goal to shoot for. Maybe a little James Earl Jones would be good for helping the solos. Me and the bass may actually have something worth saying and a willing audience. :D OK, So what are your thoughts? Is this a stupid idea and if not, any material for helping the bass along on it's road to maturity? p.s. Bob, I'd bring the bass to you for the de-dampening treatment, but money is really tight right now. Maybe it's in my basses future. |
Thought!
Why do Basses sound better after it gets some cracks and then gets fixed? Is that part of aging? Is that part of mellowing out or am I just cracking up mentioning this? :p (why pink? yuck..)
Experience and time combined loosens up a Bass. My 200 or so year old Italian Bass sounds mellower than my 88 year old Italian Bass and the older one has way more cracks. :( I had two English Basses side by side both around 200 years old and the one with more cracks sounded better. Then I bought another one almost 200 years old with even more cracks and it sounds even better than the other two. :D Maybe it is all it's cracked up to be, aye?:rolleyes: |
Ken, I respect your advice.
Do you recommend I put the bass outside for the rest of the winter? |
breaking in a bass
I have heard people suggest some kind of transducer that vibrates the bass; but I don't know specifically what device, where to get it and how to use it. Anyone else, know about these? One bassist suggested playing tritone double stops with a bow to generate a lot of vibration. My bass is new so I bow some long open Es and As as well as the tritone double stops to open it up when I start practicing.
Jim |
If you believe that sound vibrations will improve your bass, then just plug into your amp, turn it up till it feeds back and leave it on all day. :eek:
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I do this:
Tune your E string down to D. Then hold your finger down on A on the G string. You end up with 4ths, or 5ths (if you are on your head). Then play a series of double stops on the strings D & A, A & D, D & A, etc... if you want to get tricky turn your bow underhanded and play the lowest and highest string at the same time. You will feel your bass start to open up. Give it a whirl. Brian |
Give it a whirl?
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Remember the song? "Breaking-in Is Hard To Do" ..;) My method? I just buy old Basses and get them fixed up, period. My 3/4 Shen is 10 years old and my 7/8ths is about 6. The Lionhead from Jeff is about 3 1/2 etc.. They all sound their age. My Martini is 88 and Gilkes is 193 and they both sound their age as well despite their young looks. Being smart and having experience is two different things. Doing the right thing to vibrate your Bass is fine if you can live long enough to witness the change. If you can afford a House or Car and/or hobbies and vices, then adjust your priorities and try to get an older investment grade Bass. I don't see it happening any other way. |
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I believe that each bass, where it is in its own progression has a maximum volume and tone production capability. What I am suggesting is how to get the most out of that instrument at that particular time in its progression. However, if you don't believe me- try it. Try it on one of your 200 year old English Basses. Do it for one week solid, about 5-10 minutes a day. Make it part of your practice routine, as long tones. Your bow arm will improve, and your tone production on that instrument will improve. I also think that the amount of vibrations you are producing will positively affect the sound- in the long run. There is no instant fix. HTML Code:
Being smart and having experience is two different things. Doing the right thing to vibrate your Bass is fine if you can live long enough to witness the change. As I said, give it a whirl. :rolleyes: Brian |
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My reasoning for using the method I developed is that all four strings are ringing either due to direct playing it or sympathetic vibration. That means the whole bass is being driven from every string. (hopefully) You can hear all the overtones ring fully- and I believe that is the key. I don't have enough fingers to pull off your system.:D My bass wasn't played for about 10-12 years when I bought it. It was stiff and didn't speak as well when I first got it. True, I have done some set up and added a C-extension. (Which, incidentally, I think has a profound effect on "opening up" an instrument.) After eight years of owning this instrument, it sounds much better now. Not just to me, but my section mates in the orchestras I play in. Part of this, not all- is due to me "coaxing the sound" out of the instrument. If I could demonstrate it- you could hear the difference just a few minutes makes. I call it "waking up". FWIW Brian |
For those interested:
http://www.dalemfg.com/acousticaladjustment_021.htm Obviously a bass would be much more involved, but you guys asked. :cool: Brian |
I'm sure the quickest and easiest route (for those who can afford it) is to just buy an old bass to begin with.
For someone in my lack of income bracket :( finding a bass that is well played in and speaks to me is a challenge. It seems most practical to get the last ounce of tone out of my current bass. I am in the market for a 200 year old Italian bass under 5K if anyone knows where I might find one.:D |
Vibration DeDamping
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FWIW, I've been using Prof. Gerhard A. v. Reumont's Vibration DeDamping procedure on basses for several years with very good results. This systems uses a frequency adjustable mechanical device attached to the bridge of the instrument which sets the plates into high amplitude vibration during 12-15 precisely controlled steps from approx 50 to 12,000 Hz. The lowest frequency steps starting at about 50Hz are run for 5 to 10 hours each and I can guarantee that a few hours of this can get your wife VERY mad at you as it is VERY loud (good ear protection is an absolute must). Unlike loudspeakers, all of the energy is directed into the tables of the bass and the top of the instrument can actually be seen (with a stroboscope) to move with an amplitude of between 1/16" and 1/8" at the ff hole area continuously. That is far more amplitude than you will ever see as a result of playing at FFFF. Here is a link to more info in case anyone is interested. Prof. Reumont's book "How to Improve the Resonance Condition of Musical Instruments by Vibration Dedamping" has been translated into English and is available from Henry Strobel Books for about $30.00. Henry added this statement on the ordering page. "Describes the author's twenty-five years of experience and the methods and equipment he used to "play-in" string instruments. (Only for experts who can properly evaluate and apply this process.)" Reumont's method was patented in Germany and was licensed to several musical instument makers. When his patent expired, he wrote his book which explains all of the how, what, why and whens of the process. Reumont was a professor of Engineering prior to his retirement. His specialty was relieving stresses in structures. He is also a life long doublebassist. |
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BG |
Yes, I have played a few of Bob's basses that had the Vibration Dedamping process done to them. Although I didn't play the basses before the process, I am a believer in the process. They have tone in spades.
Bob, surely at some point when finances improve I'll come see you. |
Someone..
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Someone PLEASEZZZZZ come by and play my Cornerless bass and feel your innards shake when you play the two bottom strings as well as listen to the G and D which sound as thick as a bridge cable and tell me if any new Bass can sound like this with any of these 'mad scientist' methods. Then, please play one of Arnold's handmades as well as my Simba' from Jeff and then tell me how these good newbies sound in comparison as well as your souped-up gadgeted newbies as compared to my Storionish Bass. I just want to hear it from someone playing all three examples between actually old, New and 'vibrated' New. Is that too much to ask? Then, and only then can we put this theory to rest. If you don't compare it to some good old Basses, we will not know what it does. Also, do Basses ever crack while doing this test? All Basses crack somewhere while being brokin-in during the first 50-100 years somewhere at least.. |
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I am not going to get into a discussion on whether Vibration DeDamping works or not. It has worked for me in the past and that is all that matters to me. I simply wished to point out that Reumont's Vibration DeDamping method does exist and has been reviewed positively by such well know violin authorities as Joseph Curtin. There have been very positive articles written by persons other than Reumont on the subject of Vibration DeDamping that are also available. If your mind is closed on this matter, that's your business. I'm not going to try to convince you or anyone else otherwise. However, don't think for a second that Reumont's methods can be compared to the old schemes such as putting a speaker in front of a instrument and playing loud music or tones. All you have to do is put your hand on the instrument and feel how little of the audio energy has been transferred to the plates of the instrument. Such schemes might possibly work on a violin or other instruments with smaller, relatively thin plates, but on a bass it isn't going to happen. The plates are simply too big, thick and stiff for air transfer to do much, if anything. Vibration DeDamping is not a gentle process and proper care MUST be exercised, as it has the potential to damage (i.e. crack) an instrument, especially if one tries to cut corners. I read where one person thought he could "improve" the process without using Reumont's methodology or buying the expensive equipment that Reumont specifies. The net result was an instrument that had to be sent to the shop for fairly major repairs. Even with proper care, broken strings sometimes occur. However, I have not heard on anyone damaging an instrument when they followed Reumont's instructions. |
Ok ok..
I think we are talking about two slightly different things. I agree that playing a Bass does help to break it in and this Vibrating technique you refer to may help it further and faster BUT my point is as you have just said, "No one can duplicate the effects of time on the molecular structure of the wood".
I just want to make it VERY clear that anything short of a good Bass being very old will not sound or respond like a very old Bass no matter how much you 'shake 'n' bake' it.... If you have a newish kind of Bass, play it as much as you can to break it in. The methods described above has worked according to the witnesses postings. If you want an actual Real OLD BASS, then get one because nothing you can do will make it old before its time.. Bob? Are we on the same page now? Close maybe buddy? I will try Brian's methods of 'D'/'A' 5ths for a warm up each time before playing whenever time allows and see what shakes. Brian? On that 'E'-string to 'D' de-tuning, will I get the same results just using my Extension stopped on the 'D' to play that 5th with the 'A' string or does the length matter? |
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No, you can stop the D on your extension. I was assuming that Greg did not have one... I stop my extension like that. I may be up to Philly in the near future, so I will try to get John to take me out to your place. I would love to play that "Storioni". I also want you to take a look at the "Heifetz" up close and personal. Brian |
Visit?
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The Storioni is here for a few months 'till Arnold finishes my Hart/Fendt Bass. Then I take one off his bench and put another one on it. I would love to see your Old German as well. Just let me know what your plans are. I go into Philly myself on occasion and there is also a Train that comes within 10 minutes of the shop as well. |
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Brian |
Yup...
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Oh him...
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Thank you Brian, but I've got an Obligato E and don't want to kill it buy tuning down. No extension on the bass. I have been dragging the bow to get as much sound out of the bass as possible when nobody else is home :eek: and I think it's helping. FWIW, I don't currently have the means to even consider another bass for probably several years. It's got something to do with being married and soon having two kids in college among other factors. I'm not complaining, it's just the way it is. I suppose I could change my marital status, but I love my wife too much to give it much thought. :D My bass will get to listen to some loud music for the foreseeable future and be punished by the bow. This may or may not help, but it can't hurt either. When I can free up some funds, I may take it over to Bob's for some punishment. Thanks for the advice. |
I'd love to try that cornerless bass, do you stand it in a corner when you're not playing it?
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who me?
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I definitely notice even over a week long period that my bass is more responsive the more I play it. Let it sit a couple of days and it feels stiff at first. It's not a huge difference, but I do notice it. I think doing something to get it vibrating is just getting it warmed up mechanically. Oh, and that low Major 7th interval is just a double stop. I just use the two notes, the open BB and the Bb. You have to play it arco to get the effect. If you have a 4 string, the flat 5th works pretty well and the vibrational deflection in the bass is considerable if you can set up a standing wave at about 2-3 Hz. The dissonance is sort of seizmic. Things will walk off of the shelves....
Overall, my DB does respond much easier than when new. I think the exercise is beneficial. If it is going to get considerably better with age, that will be nice to experience. If not, some day I may resort to Ken's strategy... Gee for whatever reason I could take up that invitation to come play on his basses, I might have to make the time. |
A few years a go Rick Turner and Steve Rabe (SWR amps) did a similar experiment where they hooked guitar up to a low frequency transducer. They reported similar effects. Interesting. They patented the proces, or the device, but I don't think it ever went anywhere
http://www.acousticguitar.com/gear/a...ibration.shtml I always assumed that the changes with age are the result of the wood changing character, not viibrations--in grad school I did a fair amount of remodeling work on old rowhouses in San Francisco--old as in 70 years or so. The wood in those houses was hard to work--it was really hard to drive a nail into it compared to new lumber. It could be because they used "old growth" timber, but I doubt it--those were rowhouses that were built after the SF earthquake, in a hurry. My house was built in 1949, a typical DC area postwar brick cape cod, built in a hurry to standard specs, and the floor joists are similarly harder to nail and drill than new timber, and I just can't believe they were using some kind of old growth lumber in 1949. My guess is that the resins in the wood age and grow harder and more brittle. But who knows? I'm not even convinced that old instruments always sound better. I've played plenty of expensive old guitars that sounded blah. But I've never played a really old bass. |
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Apparently, in flat top guitars, the Chladni modes are at a consistent fixed frequency from one guitar to another. This allows them to vibrate the guitars at known (fixed) frequencies. Violin family instruments could not use this method since the exact mode vibration frequencies would not be known. (Besides, how would you attach a round back bass to the top of the big guitar shaker?);) |
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There are definitely chemical changes happening in the wood. Incidentally, the studs in my 1915 heart pine house will break a drill bit unless it is designed to drill through high grade steel, and those will generally burn through more than cut through, so the wood does get harder as observed by others. What has occurred to me lately is that the vibration of the wood may speed up this process. Almost every chemical process is speeded up by agitation of the reactants, and vibrating a piece of wood will certainly cause the components within it to move around, perhaps bringing more of the unstable chemicals into contact with the others that these react with. The other consideration is that when we play an instrument, much of the energy we introduce to the wood is not converted into sound, but absorbed by the wood. This will be absorbed in the form of heat, a result of the friction between the moving molecules as some of the sound waves are absorbed, just like bending a piece of metal will heat it up. Heat is also known to accelerate chemical reactions. So the agitation and heat effects could be at work in speeding up the aging process and the term "warming up the bass" is more accurate than one might think at first. Even though these effects are probably quite small, the general perception that there is a difference is considerable. |
ahhhh??
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I have no clue what you just said David! :confused: As far as breaking in a Bass, playing it is the only sensible thing I can think of. If you are looking for that 'old' sound, buy an 'old Bass'! ;) |
I understand what David said, but it seems to be an exercise in theoretical physics. Surely anything that gets molecules moving will cause friction which will, in turn, cause heat. I suspect that any increase in temperature on the bass would be only a fraction of a degree. Have basses in warm climates improved more than those in colder climates?
Oxidation of the wood also chemically changes the wood. How would anyone ever set up an experiment on this? I do agree that old wood is harder, on average, than new wood; I suspect it was also harder when it was new. New pine is a crop grown with the intent to maximize yield. I believe that approach produces softer wood. David, are there little insects in your house singing to the studs, causing them to vibrate?:D |
Basically what I'm saying in a nutshell:
Anything that produces vibration in the bass or a small amount of heat could speed up the chemical process that is normally due to aging. It is a reasonable hypothesis considering the proven and known nature of chemical reactions, but probably very difficult to prove. |
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In the wood there are unstable chemicals that react with each other that are in close contact in the wood's structure. These are acids and (relatively speaking) bases right next to each other that tend to neutralize over time, a very long time, because the structure of the wood slows down the migration of reactants through the wood. So the reactions that happen within the wood as it ages happen pretty easily, depending on the moisture in the wood (faster if the wood is wet and warm) and other factors like the density and other components of the wood. It isn't necessary for the wood to be exposed to open air for some of these reactions to proceed. Attempting to seal the wood probably wouldn't slow it down much either. If you want to see an example of accelerated degradation of wood due to heat (and not much heat) simply place a freshly cut piece of spruce (2x4 from any hardware store that has a rapid inventory turn over will do) in the sun with part of it covered by something opaque and the other part exposed directly. Within a few days the exposed part will be darkened. The only energy added is light (heat) and the components in the wood react with each other due to the addition of the light (heat). This will happen without the light also, just a lot slower. One thing is certain: Freshly harvested wood is chemically unstable. Oxidation is one way to describe what is happening during aging, but mostly it is rapid degradation of partially formed cellulose, hemi-cellulose that is being burned up by acidic lignen. When that has happened completely, the remaining acid attacks the complete cellulose but much more slowly. Most of the hemi-cellulose is consumed within 2-5 years. It would not be practical for most builders of wood items to wait for the cellulose reaction to go to equilibrium, as that might take hundreds of years. But it certainly does happen. Quote:
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Once when I was bowing some really low notes quite loudly, I looked up to find that several spiders, which I had no idea would be disturbed, had crawled out from behind the woodwork apparently to see what all the commotion was! So at least we know that vibrating the wood will drive the spiders out of hiding. |
thermodynamics?
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So if playing a Bass till it's old makes it sound better, how can you say it's the thermodynamics thingamajig thingy and not just the experience of the harmonics of the wood communicating with itself to sound more mature, seasoned and complex? On the heat theory, in 1971 shortly after buying a beautiful W.B.Wilfer Bass I got a job for a few weeks on a Cruise Ship. One day while docked in Puerto Rico I took the Bass out in the hot sun and played it for an hour of so in hopes of aging the Bass faster. All it did was make me tired and dehydrated!:( I don't think that Bass got much from my 'heated' jamming.. If this heat thing is true then I ask you, should one move down South when buying a new Bass and then move up North again after the heat has aged it quicker? Speaking of time, imagine how much better your own Bass would sound, age and mature if you played it for as long as you spent typing these 'marathon' theoretical posts that most of us get dizzy just trying to read! Just a thought..lol;) |
When I posted this, a heated and agitated discussion was not what I had in mind.
:o Just offering a plausible explanation for what so many of us observe about old and "played-in" instruments. As subtle as the effects would be I don't think one instance of extreme heat exposure or extended playing would mimic true aging. It is possible to add so much heat that the whole natural aging process is wrecked in favor of reactions that only proceed at the higher temperatures. I'd think dehydrating the bass would remove a good deal of the moisture that is one of the necessary vehicles in the wood for acid / base reactions to happen. That is why kiln drying arrests the normal drying / aging process and these woods are not as good for tone wood, but are softer and more desirable for carving into other things that are not musical instruments. Wood carvers prefer kiln dried wood, musical instrument makers usually do not. And the kiln dried stuff is reputedly softer. I wouldn't recommend any extreme measures to accelerate the aging of an instrument made from relatively new wood. Hooking it up to a jack-hammer or leaving it in the car in full sun are certainly not good ideas. :eek: Normal seasonal changes with the wood taking up moisture and releasing it and regular playing is probably the safest practice. But I do think it is desirable for builders to use wood that is as old as they can possibly obtain because aged wood is aged wood, regardless of when it was carved into a bass. In fact, the heart wood in a live tree is actually dead already, and is much more aged than the outer tree rings even when a tree is harvested. That part of a tree, the old dead wood in the center, is structural support for the living outer part of the tree. It is biologically adaptive for the tree to have stronger aged dead wood in the center. That way it can get taller, withstand the higher winds, and get the best light for photosynthesis. It is a shame to me that we are losing the best American spruce for future musical instruments to the timber / lumber export market. |
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