too much wood ?
 

I wonder if anyone give me a little advice on my 7/8 French bass (most build characteristics seem to point to it being French).

I had this bass ' repaired' by someone a while back who used overly long whole linen strips to hold cracks in the top together.
Unfortunately too much stress caused by the linen (glued in a perfect line parallel to the grain) opened a nice long new crack and so I decided to open the bass up and do a relatively simple repair by removing the linen ,cleaning ,re-gluing and cleating the top where needed.

I have not played this bass for a while as the sound although loud , just never quite did it for jazz , it always was 'quite' good with a bow but for pizz was pretty thumpy , dark and unalive .

On closer inspection I saw the back had started to come off and so I decided to start by taking the back off first , especially seeing that whoever took it off before me did not glue it back 100% straight.

When I looked inside I was really surprised to see the size of the lining in the c bouts on the back side of the bass were 10mm thick and about 5mm thick all round the rest of the bass . All the linings including the thick ones mentioned are about 35mm wide . Also the linings were wedged tightly into the edges of the corner blocks.

The corner blocks are elaborately carved to 'take' the extra fat lining as you can see by the pictures . The corner blocks are also very wide and do cover a substantial part of the actual c-bout ribs . I have already removed the back linings as I feel that they are too big and must be cut down.

The bass is very well carved and the wood is of a very good grade (maple back and ribs), but I feel that there is simply too much wood on this instrument for it to vibrate. Any advice would be great....

That lining does look pretty fat, and the blocks do extend down into the c-bout. I don't think I would have a problem with them coming down that far, but I'm confused as to what the second photo shows; how are the linings are let into the blocks? What is all that stuff in the center of the rib?

bah, where's the fun in that? ;)

The lining has been removed already , so what can see is only a glue and dirt stripe where the lining used to be .

Glued on linen is what you are seeing in the rib centre .

this time I'm going to try my damnedest to keep all my fingers intact :rolleyes:

That linen repair looks OK to me. And the blocks, OK so they're nice and solid, but they don't look too heavy to me. They look well made; I'd leave them. Apparently the linings for the C bouts were typically sawn rather than bent which is why they are thicker. Fairly easy to replace but I'd rather replace them on a free edge than one glued to top because clamping is much simpler! The other linings can be thinned carefully with a plane, but I doubt whether these changes alone will make much of a difference.

Have you posted pics elsewhere of the bass so I can see the button/scroll/ffs?

Have you posted pics elsewhere of the bass so I can see the button/scroll/ffs?[/quote]

Her are some pics . The linings are separated from the ribs in many places and will need to be removed and re-attached. The neck block is also not in great shape and I see that the neck foot bottom is not flush with the neck block floor .
Hmm - looks like more repairs than I thought . I cant believe that the 'bass mechanic' gave this bass back to me with a smile and said "now that its repaired all we have to do is a little tweaking to get her sounding great":mad:

What happened to the varnish? That hurts the value usually unless it was already gone by someone before and you had no choice. Still, original varnish should never be stripped in my opinion. The lining is about 2-4x what it needs. have that width and less thickness. It only needs to aid the plate-rib glue surface. The excess dampens the tone. Most likely this is a Mirecourt factory bass and was made on a 'Friday' from the looks of that neck/block fit..:D

Sadly when I got the bass it had been re-varnished with a color that was horribly red and so I have stripped the bass and will redo it after its playable.
The scroll may have original varnish under some clear coat of something , and the small piece of color on the button I think may be original .

That neck was knocked out of the neck block and was reset like that by the aforementioned 'bass mechanic' . As a matter of fact the very reason that I am learning to repair instruments is because of how much money and time I waisted trying to have this bass repaired.

ken , is it possible to hazard a guess as to the age of the bass ?I'm guessing
early 1900s ..

Also I'm guessing that one cant expect a huge difference in tone by merely cutting the linings down ?

Could it be worth it sound wise to replace or cut down the end block.

The end block has water damage, maybe from a Dampit. Seal the cracks with something on the block and don't trim too much from it or, make a new block fresh.

The linings being smaller will free up the Rib vibrations and it WILL make a noticeable difference in the sound/tone. Give any bass going thru a full restoration from 2-5 years to settle in with the sound it will have going forward. Re-repairing after a big restoration within that time is sometimes done as the bass settles from all the work as well.

Another question regarding this bass ... Is there an 'ideal' when it comes to top thickness ? The top on this bass measures 11mm and then graduates quite quickly to 9mm and then to about 8mm about halfway from centre seam to just before the ribs . This is a 4/4 or 7/8 size instrument so the plates would be slightly thicker than a 3/4 .

The reason Im asking all these questions is that this is one heavy mother of a bass , the heaviest I have seen . The neck is also thick.

Im just intrigued by the fact that it is an instrument that has been built/carved well and with obvious care, but seems to lack the finesse in design needed to bring out the best possible sound :confused:

the Spruce top is the lightest wood in the bass; the back and ribs and neck will contribute to most of the weight. That said, it sounds thick; most basses have graduations down to 6mm or less just inside the ribs. But it depends a bit on the wood.

That bass bar is way too long.

Arnold do you mean that the bar is too long overall , here is a pic of the whole bar ...

I may be mistaken. In one of the earlier pictures it looked like the bass bar went almost to the tailblock. In your new picture that does not look to be the case.

I'm about to put new linings on this bass / I have a choice of spruce , willow or
maple . I'm thinking spruce at this stage , but still have a couple of questions that maybe someone help me with .

Firstly I am still intrigued by the size of the corner blocks . The block surface to rib contact is 3 inches (+- 8cm ) see pic. The blocks are also pretty thick .

Secondly , should the linings be 'jammed' as they were into the blocks ? Surely the extra pressure will inhibit vibration transfer ?

This bass has such a huge sound that I believe she may have the potential to be something special ..........

Those blocks look fine. Personally, I wouldn't mess with them. Linings are normally butted up against the blocks or even let into them. That's how they are supposed to be. I'd use willow or maple linings.

Hi Matthew , I'm interested why you wouldn't use spruce.Is it because of the differential shrinkage potential between the maple and spruce?

Also a lot of makers and repairers mention how important it is to try and not inhibit vibration transfer of the ribs by adding too much repair material or making the ribs thick etc etc ... so I'm questioning the fact that on this particular bass the ribs were wedged between the blocks creating pressure against the ribs , surely its better practice to just 'bump' the edging up against the blocks neatly .... or perhaps there really isn't a right or wrong answer after all :D

I don't like the idea of linings butting up to the blocks; to me, it just seems like asking for the ends to come loose as things shrink and they get pushed up tight to the blocks. I'd rather see them let well into the block so that they're securely tied down to the rib. Seems more structurally sound to have the linings secure to the blocks, too.

I'd prefer willow or maple because they are more durable woods and/or bend better. Usually on a well made bass they are just fit neatly and exactly, not wedged in. I think if the linings are bent and glued properly there's no real need to inlet them into the blocks. A good glue joint will outlast you, anyway! Strad did it on his violins and everyone copied him. Not every maker does it. There's a maker in Sydney who runs the linings smoothly across the blocks and joined with a long scarf joint. Looked a good idea to me but extra work. So you can inlet them if you like; there's plenty of wood on the blocks at the C bouts to allow this.

Either way, I don't think its going to make much difference to the sound. The linings are to provide a wider edge-grain gluing surface than the edge of the maple rib; as long as this is achieved i don't actually think it really matters what they're made of or whether they're inlet.

Strad also did not make basses - with that much wood there's a lot more to move around, and we all know that basses get beat up a lot more than violins... ;)

Letting the linings into the blocks on a bass is unnecessary. It is done as a way of showing off the maker's skill. As Matthew stated, a well-glued joint will usually outlast the maker. Linings are temporary. After several plate removals (for repairs or alterations) the linings deteriorate, especially on a bass. Eventually they need to be replaced. For example, when I restored Ken's former Gilkes bass, all 12 linings were replaced. Rarely does one find a very old bass with the linings intact. I personally use only two wood types for bass linings; spruce or willow.

Arnold,what size do you cut your linings?

I'm redoing all the linings due to their size and wear.I removed the top today to find that the neck and end block are not totally flush with ribbing , this has caused cracks in the top . The pics should show where the cracks are in relation the the blocks ...
This in part must have had a hand in the bass not quite sounding as I envisioned it should (at least I hope so).I know that it's not always the best idea to take back and top off simultaneously but nothing was in place really besides the blocks and ribs.
In my research I have found out the bass has been opened at least twice in the last 15 years, as well as being refinished for some reason or other.Im starting to think by looking inside the bass that it suffered water damage at some time , the end block as Ken said earlier on certainly points to the possibility.

Adrian, I hope you don't have the top and back removed at the same time. I make linings in the style of the existing instrument. For a new bass, usually 3.5mm thick and 20-30mm wide.

The back came off first (mostly by itself) , the top was glued on before by someone who saw fit to have to force the ribs inwards in order to get a 'correct looking' fit .
So I've now semi glued the back on with weak hide glue spread on easier to access parts of all six blocks, it fit well.I firstly glued thin blotting paper to the surface of the blocks/no wood on wood contact and quite strong.I did this so I could remove the top and see what's causing it to crack so much and then revisit the back.

I have finished replacing all the linings on this bass now .
The back linings are 22mm wide and 2.5 thick and the top linings are really small at 10mm x 2.5 . Its my bass so I'm prepared to experiment with the small top linings.
The last linings were up to 10mm THICK on the c bouts and about 32mm wide all round.

I've read so many contrasting viewpoints on the difference that smaller linings can make ...
Im not expecting a miracle though :p

In the pic you can see the 'clean' wood where the old linings were.

The bass is now done , and varnished. When the varnish is totally hard it'll get its final touch up and polish. Its such a pity that the instrument had its original varnish removed!

The real experiment was to replace the very large linings with smaller than conventional ones in the hope that the bass would simply sound better.
I also did thin out the bass bar and am happy to report that the alterations have made a big difference to the sound , especially the attack which is now fast . The bass has retained its original 'darkish' sound but is now more responsive and I think a little brighter sounding than before :)

Well done. It looks great - can you record a bit of sound for us?

I love the shot in your previous post of the linings from inside the bass. Architectural!

The french restoration I'm working on is lagging behind for a few reasons. But due to resume soon.

Thanks , Ill certainly try to do a recording within the next couple of weeks when Im back from an overseas stint !