Guitar and Pear-Shaped
 

Hello everyone,

A while back I posted a question up on another prominent internet DB forum regarding the history and nature of guitar-model basses. Unfortunately, my post must have been a few days after the host of this forum departed, meaning I missed out on a very knowledgeable resource to slake my curiosity. So I would like to ask the same question here: does anyone know about the origins of these interesting cornerless specimens? Someone pointed to the violones of Pietro Zenatto, of which there appear to be a few cornerless examples.

Cheers,

Charlie

origins..?
 

I have seen quite a few but mostly in pictures. I did play one recently that is just coming on the market but being shown only privately. It has a huge thick Italian sound but in my opinion it needs 20-30k to be fully restored. The value of these is more like supply and demand. Very few people want them. If the same Bass had Violin corners the asking price could be much higher. As far as origins, unless they are labeled and authenticated, it is hard to tell who actually made them. It has been common to see names like Testore, Zenatto and Storioni on these Guitar Basses but much harder to prove they actually had anything to do with making them.

Currently I am looking at two of these Basses for personal interest. One is a small Bass with a 36.5" string length and the other is about a 7/8ths size Bass. Also, I was once shown pics of David Walter's Guitar Bass (att. Testore) before it went up for sale but I had no interest in it. It was purchased by a NYC Orch. professional.

Of the three great sounding Basses I have played in the last year or so, one was a Guitar Shaped Bass. The other two were attr. to the Seraphin shop and Maggini. The Maggini I don't buy at all but is a great Bass. The Seraphin was the best of the 3 or rather close to the Guitar shaped one which was attr. to Storioni.

I have some doubts about any of these Basses to be made by those famous names but in either case, they were fantastic Basses. Maybe they are what the claim to be. How would I know? I wasn't there watching when they were made!!

I think cornerless is the best shape for bass sound. The instrument can vibrate more as a unit without stiff corners mucking things up. However, cornerless basses are very difficult to pick up and move around, and the long rib bouts are sitting ducks for long cracks. When I designed my "Ergonomic" bass I envisioned a cornerless, assymetrical blob of a bass. But I added the upper corners so the player could more easily transport the bass, and to help prevent those long cracks.

ah haaa..
 

You know Arnold, I never thought of it that way. Your Ergo Basses have so many other things going on, I never viewed it much as a Cornerless Bass. Does making the upper part a Gamba take away any of the sound you think? Can the ribs be reinforced internally to help prevent long cracks or would that partly defeat the purpose? Could you put a cross strip on the outer Rib for lifting the Bass like moulding as it turns downwards and finish over it like the outer linings on German and some English Basses have?

Bob Gladstone
 

I recall Bob Gladstone owning a guitar shaped bass. Anyone know what happened to it?

I have asked myself a lot of the above questions about the cornerless bass I am making now. Since I don't have an actual specimen that I am copying I am going by the old trusted method of seat-of-the-pants. My side cross braces are going to be minimal so as not to impede movement. I am just getting back to it now after a bunch of repairs and student set ups.

My side wood is giving me some problem with unintentional bumps, but I am ironing them out with some luck.

Arnold, did you use regular lining on the ergo or did you beef them up on the lower bout?

Cornerless Bass
 

I am in the process myself on closing a deal on my first Guitar shaped Bass. This will be for my personal use. Soon after my Hart/Fendt comes out of restoration, this Bass (if I get it) will go into restoration right behind it if Arnold can take the job. Then we can study it and see what made this one sound so great if possible.

This posting is a bit premature but I am confident I will have the Bass soon. I will not discuss what Bass it is until all the ink has dried and it's in my personal possession.

Hey, do we call these Bass Guitars?

NOOO NOT BASS GUITARS:eek: :eek: Those are the silly things we first saw on MTV Unplugged, a big acoustic guitar that is supposed sound good unamplified.

lol
 

Kidding... Look, in a few days or so I should have this newly acquired Italian Guitar shaped Bass. I will post some pics for all to see probably in 'This Old Bass' section. The title of the thread will be the name of the maker the Bass has been attributed to. I will post a message here as well but with a link to the new thread.

I just thought that a Bass with a Guitar shape could at least be humorously called a Bass Guitar. It needs a lot of work but the fretboard looks good from what I recall.. LOL.. Fingerboard!!!.. kidding..lol :D

Does it have a fancy headstock?

Headstock?
 

Yea, you can say is does. Wait till I post the pics. It's coming home tomorrow.

Edit: Tomorrow came! http://www.kensmithbasses.com/Double...n_Storioni.jpg

It's here..
 

I just posted this on the d'Salo Thread. I will make a page for my website in the next day or so and then post the link or pics. It needs a huge restoration but it is playable now. If I don't play it as much as I can now, it could easily be a year before the Bass is fully restored not to mention settled back into its old sound again.

I have posted a new thread for this Bass under the Italian School titled Cornerless Italian Bass as this is a perfect example of how the Italians stood alone on making some of the greatest Basses ever.

A very sweet aquisition indeed!! Now that you've got a bonafide one of these, I can't wait to get all the details on it. Thanks for posting the measurements. I'm so used to the gamba form it is hard for me to think of these as double basses. This is one with the sloping shoulders. One has to wonder why one shape dominated and the other is so much rarer.

Oh, by the way, I post sometimes somewhere's else as:

Here is the start of a new cornerless bass that I am building.
www.upnorthstrings.com/cornerlessbass.html

I had never thought about making a cornerless bass, but after seeing yours...

You mentioned that you acquired the wood from Fred Lyman about 10 years ago. What was the length of the ribs? I wonder if any of the usual suspects (wood suppliers) would be willing or are able to cut rib wood in the length required for cornerless bass?

I took the opportunity to look at the rest of your website. I love that bass photo with the Chicken!

Hi Bob,

The rooster helps me with some finishing when he is not busy, he is very good with a gray pad. ;) ;)

As for the wood, I got the top wood from Fred Lyman with some other back and side wood. This top is from Fred but the back and sides are from Battenkill. I got a couple big slabs from him and sliced them into backs and sides. I have enough for a couple more basses. :cool:

It is an interesting project and I am going by the seat of the pants method. But that is the most fun, isn't it?

My plan was approved by Paul Warburton so I should be okay on that front.

ok,ok, so there is no corner blocks? Just the top and bottom?

Wood length..
 

Wood for ribs and back can be any length. I have had maple as long as 16' and walnut at 12' is not uncommon either. 8-10' is more of an average. I sold wood to Arnold for his Ergo II Bass and recently supplied him with some Claro Walnut for a Testore model he is making and some flamed Imbuia (brazillian walnut nick named) for a Bass he will make in the future.

You probably can do long resawing in your shop, but the average guy needs to have someone do that before he buys it. Most of the places where I get big leaf maple from don't even like to resaw 48" long for 9-10" wide ribs. Even at that, I have to do the thicknessing myself.

I am accepting opinions on this question of what shape you prefer. http://www.upnorthstrings.com/cornerlessbasspage4.html

Thanks in advance, and please respond here in Ken's corner.

I dunno Ken... I prefer the first over the second, but- I think the first would look better with the "waist" a little higher, to balance out the bottom. Does that make any sense?!?

I am not sure I know how to explain it. Maybe I will try to draw on a photo later.

But in general- I think the first is better defined.

IMHO
Brian

I like the first one best. What kind of f-holes are you favoring?

Shape..
 

Be careful with the center bout. If it is too wide, the Bow may not clear the 'wood'. On mine, the Bridge is quite high (7") but it seems to clear just fine. Also, is this an Orchestra only Bass, Solo only or Orchestra/Solo as far as its intended use? Smaller upper bouts from what I have seen seems to make the Bass sound thin on top while wider upper bouts usually have a sweet midrange like a 'wet' or moist kind of sound.

What will your Rib depth be? Mine just barely reached 7 3/4" at the widest point but is mostly 7 5/8" around the bottom portion. My Dodd was only 7 1/2" at the widest point as was the loudest Bass to date I have played.

Harmony in all the dimensions and with the wood chosen is not really a science. I think the Cornerless Bass may have a new revival on the horizon.

Thanks David, I am leaning towards the first also now and I think the proportions are good that way.

It will have a narrow enough UB to help reach around yet be wide enough to get some vibrations happening there. It could get really hard to get good arching with the real narrow UB as seen on the Lemer bass. But I am working that out now.

Ken, thanks. It is planned as a solo/orchestra bass with a real thunderous low end yet a good amount of "buzz" in the the higher positions, but who knows???. The bridge in the plan is about 6 1/2 inch but will depend on the final arching of course. As for the ribs, they are going to be 9 1/2 inches at the tail block and taper to less than 6 at the neck ( exact number to follow when I can measure it).

Not sure yet, I am thinking something original but Italian looking. Certainly not a copy of any of those shown.

Thanks Brian, I think after the plate goes on it will be easier to decide. These things never translate from paper to wood as one would think.

FFs, Bridge and Rib depth..
 

On the Ribs, if you make them that deep, it may slow down the response and punch. My two Best Basses to date had LESS than 8" ribs. That being my Dodd at 7 1/2" and my Cornerless at 7 5/8" mainly. The taper is needed but mainly in the upper bout and at the Neck. That's the right idea. If you can, make two rib shells and fit the same Top and Back to both. Then see which sounds better.

On the FFs, make them spaced far enough at the upper eyes for the Bridge feet so that the bridge width matches the Bass size re:3/4, 7/8, 4/4, 5/4 .. etc. If spaced too close like on my Bass, you will need a 5/8 to 3/4 sized bridge for a 4/4 Bass. Mine has been damaged with the Top pushed down on the G-string side from being too wide with a 170mm wide bridge instead of a 150mm or smaller size which the FFs dictate be used in order to sit properly over the Bass bar.

Ken (McKay)-

I played with the shape. It isn't exact, but you get the idea. I also think this would help with the bow clearance issue.

I agree with Ken (Smith) about the rib depth. My bass isn't particularly deep, but has a very deep fundamental. I think very deep basses have a lot of "spread" but not too much core. However, if you are going to 5.5" or 6" taper at the block then having her "fat on the bottom" wouldn't be such a bad idea.


Brian

Fat and width..
 

First off, fat on the bottom should not mean it needs deep ribs at all. Deep ribs are often used on smaller Bass to add air space. Too much space on the bottom and it may be slow moving the air out of the Bass.

Second, if the width is too narrow, the FF's eyes at the top will be very close causing it to need a very narrow bridge. You don't want a 1/4 sized Bridge on a 3/4-7/8's Bass. That will kill the whole Idea having the Bass bar so close to the sound post with wide lower bouts.

Guitar shape or not, the upper and lower bouts should have harmony with the center curved as needed. Ask Arnold and Jeff about this. Also, take a regular Bass you know and like the sound of and convert the shape to cornerless by just shaving off the corners and maybe with some slight modifications to get the desired look artistically. Less is more when altering shapes and designs from a proven model. Also, note on that proven model how deep the Ribs actually are. The deeper the Ribs, the more room for them to flex or maybe crack. Since the Cornerless Bass can flex more than one with corners, I would only assume that slightly 'less' Rib depth would be better.

Maybe my "terminology" was a little off. I meant "deep at the bottom". I would figure that if the bass is tapering off to 6" at the neck, then you would need a deeper rib depth at the bottom to add the air space that you are losing at the neck. (That is if he planned on a certain airspace that he was shooting for...)

I didn't suggest that the width be too narrow. Maybe the bottom and top would have to expand to make the shape I was suggesting. Ken McKay is the engineer on this project, so I will let him work out the details. I was just suggesting what was visually more appealing to me. I am sure Ken McKay would take into account all of those aspects as this isn't his first bass.

IMHO,
Brian

Brian, I get your point clearly. It does look rather harmoneous with the drawn in lines. I am playing with the plan and looking at the important points that Ken Smith brought up about the bass bar and bridge positions. I am leaning towards an ff like the Lemar bass as that is closer to my shape and it may fit better. Thanks again.

KS, I am thinking about narrowing the ribs and how to go about it at this point. Good help on the bass bar and bridge stuff also. I am going to get out the Weisshaar book tonight and study it a bit as he goes over bass bar placement.

Aarnold, thanks for the help on the rib bracing from the other thread.

Progress?
 

Ken, any progress to report? You know, we just love pictures....

...not much for photos but there are some updates starting here http://www.upnorthstrings.com/cornerlessbasspage4.html
I did two things:
1. Narrowed the waste just a bit by removing the linings and bending the side in just a half inch above the narrowest part of the middle bout.
2. Planed the ribs for less depth by tapering them from tail block to neck. This will leave the ribs about 9 1/2 at the end block but narrowing to 8/12 at the area where the back bends in, then tapering in to 6 1/2 for better reach-around.

Oh yea and I jointed, joined and started planing the top. Nice old seasoned spruce wood.

Looking Good Ken!

Can't wait to see her put together- she has curves!
Brian

Brian and all,

Click on the link above and have a look at my new shape, although subtle, I think it did make a considerable difference. I think it is very close to the Testore bass which unfortunately I only have the small photo.

Yes! that is definitely sweet looking. It kind of has the proportion of one of those Alexandria basses, without the corners. I think Pollmann makes them. I always liked the big difference in the upper and lower bouts. Testore would approve!

Bouts..
 

Testore or not, small upper bouts make for a smaller sound. It would be good if you came here and played and then measured my Bass. Sue Lipkins mentioned that David Wiebe was very impressed with the Riccardi Bass and soon after made a copy of it.

The bottom end of my Bass is like I have never in my life heard, never. You know some of the Basses I have played and owned and nothing has ever matched this Bass. Take a closer look at the measurements if you can. There is something to learn from this Bass.

Ken,

I really like the shape. I say go ahead and make this one. Then, when you make #2, you can pattern it after KS's Bass.

I understand the need to "experiment" with the shape and have your own pattern. Go for it!

Brian

Ken, thanks for the invite to measure the Reccardi bass I may take you up on that someday. I also do want to play and hear it!

We are going to have to see how this one turns out and it will be a lesson to us all I think. Keep in mind that my lower bout is very wide at 28+ inches making the upper bout look small. It will be 18 inches, which is still smaller than the Storioni by about 2 inches, but not as much as the Lemur bass which is 15 1/2 (anyone know how that one sounds?) and the Bass attributed to Ruggeri (Sciachia's), is also 18.

The way I arch and graduate the stiffness of the top, along with the bridge height (downward pressure) is going to have a big effect. I also think that your string length (mensure) goes a long way in defining the huge sound! I have heard this from other experts.

So keep the comments coming, every morsel is gold and a learning experience for me.