Show your Extensions!
 

I had two extensions back in my early days in the early 70s and recently started putting one on every suitable Orchestra Bass that goes through my hands. If you have an Extension on your Bass, come and share it with the rest of us. To get the ball rolling, I will show the few that Arnold made for me and the most recent and first Chromatic Bollbach Extension as well. I will list them in the order that they were made (Morelli, Martini, Prescott, Gilkes and Bisiach.)

http://www.kensmithbasses.com/double...images/683.jpghttp://www.kensmithbasses.com/double...crollFront.jpghttp://www.kensmithbasses.com/double..._scranglel.jpghttp://www.kensmithbasses.com/double...s/scrollFR.jpghttp://www.kensmithbasses.com/double...mages/bis5.jpg

http://www.smithbassforums.com/www.f...ss/scroll2.jpgMine's not as fancy as yours, but it does stay in tune well. Using an original Flexocore right now.


http://www.flintbuchanan.com/images/bass/scroll2.jpg
http://www.flintbuchanan.com/images/scroll_2.jpg
http://www.flintbuchanan.com/images/...ev_scroll2.jpg

Apart from yours and Ken's Morelli extension, I must say that its a pity the others turn a beautiful graceful scroll into a telegraph pole. I'm sure they work really well, but Ken please don't do that to the Storioni, even though it's already been cut!

Cut?
 

NONE of my Scrolls were Cut for the C-Extension. The Ebony is Cut to fit around the Scroll.

The Storioni, IF I still have the Bass when the Hart is done, WILL get the same Chromatic Ext. from Arnold AFTER he restores the Scroll back to as original as possible. If it gets sold before then, the new owner will do as HE please I'm sure..

I know you wouldn't cut a scroll Ken, I didn't say that. And I'm not rubbishing anyone's craftmanship, least of all Arnold's and Jeff's.

But you have started a thread "Show your Extensions" and I've presumed that is so that feedback is received?

So to MY taste, those chromatic extensions DO turn an elegant scroll into a telegraph pole, so from ME at least, the feedback isn't gushing :eek:

telegraph pole?
 

Ok, I get it now. I thought you were assuming that the Scrolls were cut for my Chromatic Extensions as well.

I don't know what your Bass playing experience but let me try and explain in short when I use the Chromatic style. When playing in an Orchestra and a single note or two comes up below E, it is much easier to pre-set the the Stop to the lowest note needed and finger anything in between.

In the Philly Orchestra most all the players have the Chromatic while some of the older Extensions on the Basses are Mechanical/Chromatic. Only one Bass that I have seen has only the E-Latch and that is the Asst. Princ (3rd Chair). The Princ. has a Chromatic and the Assoc Princ. a Mechanical. All of the new Extensions the guys get there are the Chromatic.

I have used all 3 types and the Chromatic is the best of the 3 I feel. Only on fast passages would the keys/mech. be slightly better but equally noisier. The first time I saw the Philly Orch was a christmas Show with my family. There were only 4 Basses that night all with mechanical Exts. and almost every time they used, set or locked the keys, I could hear it from almost 100 feet away if not more.

The best way to play the low notes fast is with a 5-string Bass. The Chromatic can still be fingered just as easy as the E-latch fingered Ext.

So, no matter how it may look, it IS the most popular Ext. that I have seen and my personal favorite. Imagine octave jumps like in the Brandenburg or the Trout and you can quickly set your lowest string to E, Eb, D, Db or C to play any quick octave jump or run you need. Kinda cool I think! Next best thing to having a 5-string and one less string to jump across from not having the 5th B-string as well.

Many years ago (long before I started making extensions in my own shop), I took my personal bass to a well known bass shop 700 miles from my home so that I could have one fitted by what was reputed to be one of the best bass shops in the country. I nearly cried when I was handed the part of the scroll that was cut away to install the extension. Because of the shop's reputation, I didn't even think to ask if they were going to cut the scroll. Thank God, that barbaric practice is no longer done by most reputable shops today.

I just got my bass back from Robertsons last night. They put on a beautiful extension with snakewood capos. Unfortunately, I haven't gotten a chance to play the bass much yet, but I'm very excited about it.
Here's a picture
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c1...ng-bass001.jpg

I think the Robertson extensions are elegant and beautiful. But I have two questions: 1)Why do they screw the extension on (in two places)? This makes it difficult to change strings and near-impossible to dress the fingerboard. 2)Why do they cut fancy filigree into the back of the extension? Sometimes a player needs to quickly get his thumb behind the extension to hold a long note manually, and the dips and points back there make it dangerous.

Whys...
 

Arnold, I have almost hurt myself on the Lott I have here with the Robertson's Ext. when fingering fast notes in the Beethoven. Also, I know that E-latch will hit my Eye one of these Days as I play the Bass kind of Low. Why or how they screw it in place beats me because I don't see any visible screws on the one I have here. If I end up getting the Lott, I will have to have at least have the E-latch re-cut for eye safety and then the tension loosened on each latch so I can knock them all open in a hurry with my left hand forefinger/thumb joint when needed. When I try that now, it's like jamming my hand into a piece of Ebony as the first Latch stops and jams my knuckle.

Your Ext's work so easily as does Jeff's first chromatic he made which is on the Bisiach labeled Bass. I think re-cutting the back is not a bad idea either. It looks pretty but it's almost like having sharp ridges in the Neck between positions. I might need to carry some First-aid stuff to play with it as it is now.:(

I think the Robertson's is a good Extension overall but for me, I need it modified to what I have become used to and that's smoothness, ease of use and very comfortable all around.

Two of my Favorites..
 

Arnold, of the three Chromatics you made for me so far, I think the Martini looks the best 'finger' wise. They all work just as well but this first one you did for me, the Fingers almost look real! Jeff's on the other hand gets the Petite award..

http://www.kensmithbasses.com/double...crollFront.jpghttp://www.kensmithbasses.com/double...mages/bis7.jpg

I actually do like the latch on the E-stop. Though I have bumped my head against it more then once, but for me I think it just stopped me from hitting my head against the scroll :) As for all the added decorations on the Robertson's extension they do have a purpose, and that is when you are fingering a note you have a physical reference, something I wish mine had. I do wish they moved easier as well. On mine I am so used to just being able to run my hand down the string and open up a gate that I have hurt myself on a few extensions trying the same thing. The one on my bass is David Graham's first extension.

I also like the E latch type that can be opened with the thumb without taking the left hand away from the neck. I've been using one of this type that was installed on my personal bass about about 30 years ago. Recently, I decided to upgrade this old single latch extension to full chromatic by installing three of Rob Anzellotti's brass "capos". While they may not look as elegant as the carved ebony or exotic hardwood latches, they are relatively low cost, light weight, easy to adjust and (from my experience) function perfectly. IMO, anyone who has an extension with just the E closer and who would like to convert it to a full chromatic should take a good look the "capos" made and sold by Rob Anzellotti. Many luthiers are now installing the Anzellotti's "capos" as part of their new hand made extensions.

You'd be better off asking robertsons those questions. I will say that the small hump they put in the back is nice. There are no sharp edges and it really makes it easier to know where you are. Different people, different strokes I guess.

Know where you are?
 

Playing any of the fast moving low parts of Beethoven's 3,5, 6, or 9 etc, there is no time to hold anything. A sharp point like that in the back can easily get in the way or do nothing at all. All keys are usually open when you play those parts with the exception of one part in the 9th where you set the 'D' key for the octave. Using single latches as time allows or fingering a single slow note or two is a different story. My point is that for universal use, the less things sticking out the better. I even sanded the edges of my gears on the G and D strings so I don't cut my self jumping back and forth quickly. Sitting on a stool with the Bass slanted helps and brings the notes/ext closer. Still, if you have the Keys there, why would you need something in the back to tell you where to finger?

I have to admit that I really cannot play on the extension past Eb unless I am seated.

As for the humps on the backs they are nice because sometimes you do need to play something like a low D that is followed by C# or something to that affect. Something like the opening in the 4th movement of Beethoven 5 or letter N in Beethoven 7 1st movement (I have been told to play the cello line sometimes). Sometimes you could a bit of fancy latch work, but sometimes I find it easier and safer to just use a finger.

As far as fast passages I know exactly what you mean by sharp edges being dangerous. Though for me it is only those on the tuners that I worry about as I play most fast extension work without putting my thumb behind, kind of like a really low and reversed thumb position hand.

What is most important I think though it get what works for you, and is comfortable (or safe perhaps :) ).

Perhaps mine is different, but I haven't encountered any sharp edges along the back of the extension.

my latest..
 

Here's the Hart with a new design by Arnold using Jeff's hardware..
http://www.kensmithbasses.com/double...ages/hart9.jpghttp://www.kensmithbasses.com/double...ges/hart11.jpg

This is a slightly shorter 3-string Scroll/Pegbox c.1830, original to the Bass. This was possibly passed off as a Maggini as I have heard of another similar Bass that was used in London for 30 years which was thought to be a Maggini until they learned it was English. Later it was attributed to William Vallentine who was actually employed by Hart to make Basses later on. They did not see the Hart stamps I assume so the attribution was very close. Another London dealer thinks this is the work of John Devereux who worked for Fendt before moving to Australia in 1854.

Either way, it's a beautiful Scroll and another custom Extension by Arnold with some supplied parts by Jeff, similar to the ones used on the Bisiach. Arnold made his own Ebony fingers though.

Extensions and hat peg tuners!!/extension history
 

I've always liked the look of hat peg tuners....that is until I had an extension installed on my current bass!

The G tuner is positioned perfectly to stop my hand in it's tracks when reaching back for the D and Db on the extension!

I wonder what others have done in this situation? at first I thought I'd just learn to cope with it, but I can easily see myself making some sort of "modification":eek: in a brief moment of frustration:D


I wonder about the history of fingered extensions....
As far as I understand it the early ones were exclusively mechanical, staring in germany around 1880 or 1890 and then sold commercially by Max Poike.

I had my extension made by Mike Hart in Suffolk, UK who has probably made more fingered extensions than anyone else over here.

He told me he made his first in 1971 after a player returned from the states where he had seen Ron Carter play. I think in those days the norm over here was the Fawcett-type mechanical, although these days they are rarely seen in the UK (with the exception of London), Fingereds being the general rule now.

Did the fingered type start as a result of removing the mechanism?

how common were fingered extensions in the US in the 60's and 70's?

Just wondering.....

Fingered's..
 

Ok, in 1972 or so I was in a car accident and my Mechanical Ext. was broken along with the Neck. The Bass was restored by Peter Eibert in NY. When I went to pick it up it had a fingered Ext. with just the E-latch. Peter opted for that rather than to try and fix my Mechanical one. The Bass was way way lighter and quieter as well.

Now, on your latches which I have played on other Basses you cannot quick-flip easily with the edge of your fore-finger/palm-strike like I can with my ebony-fingers. Also, the tension cannot be adjusted as minutely either.

I see others using 2 or 3 fingers to 'lift' the closed latches to open the Ext. partly or all the way. I can run my hand back up there sideways and knock them open in a flash and then set them easily with one finger.

Speed of usage is a major factor when you have little or no time to open a gate or close one. The Robo's are a nice idea but work too slow for my taste and hurt my fingers/hand when trying to open them in a flash like I can my Ebony's.

I don't know the exact history of the fingered extension but if you ask around in the UK shops you might hear a few stories. I have the 3-set Elgar books and in either 1 or 2 he talks about extension ideas. This was written in the 60's so it was in use easily by then. Being 'in use' and being commercially available are two different things.

oh.. and.. Hatpegs..
 

Ok, separate subject here. Your Bass looks to have the German type hatpegs. Two of the Bassists in the Philly Orchestra (Robinson and Rosengard) have hatpegs on their Italian Basses with Chromatic Extensions by I think Robertson's which are very similar to the ones I have by Arnold. BUT, their Basses have the Italian style Hatpegs which do not stick out as much as the German ones. I have the Italian ones on one of my Italian Basses now in restoration. Look at the pics below to compare.

http://www.smithbassforums.com/attac...2&d=1219318612 http://www.kensmithbasses.com/double...eapolitan1.jpghttp://www.kensmithbasses.com/double...apolitan10.jpg

I have seen many German hatpeg 'be-headed' to size down to the Italian style ones. You can cut the 'hat' portion off at about 1/4" after the metal housing and slightly round the edges and then paint it black with a marker. No one will call you the executioner..:eek:

What are your guys' opinion on chromatic "b" extension ? Likes or Dis-likes ?

Why??
 

Why would you bother with a B-extension? If one time every few years you might need it you can just tune down from the C. If not, expect to hit some doorways from time to time and carry the extra weight around 99.99% of the time when it's not needed.

Many 5-string players actually tune the low string to a C instead of B as well. This keeps you from having to shift during fast runs on the low string. When playing octaves like in a Brandenburg the perfect Octaves and fifths tuning for the B come in handy.

I personally see no need for a B-extension at all.

My sentiments exactly. A colleague of mine installed a B extension from a shop that shall remain nameless on his Roth double bass ad had to cut off the B portion because when he stopped his C capo is would rattle horribly. When he took it to his repair person a year after he installed it to solve the issue, the problem was the fingerboard was arching under the pressure and the "hump" happened to be at his C capo. So now he has a C extension. I told him if and when you play Pines of Rome just tune it down a half step lol. I think the problem arose from the flimsy fingerboard because of the ornate carving under the board. It left no mass for support. Ken what do you think ?

Ken what do you think ?
 

What do I think? I thought I said it all above in my last post. If you are referring to the construction issue or the Pines' I will say this. I have played the Pines. It has a split Bass part for those of you that have not played it in an Orchestra. The Top parts quarter note Pizz B,B,B,B.. like forever.. a page or more from what I recall some 5
years ago. The bottom part is half notes bowed B-,F-..etc. with/under the Low Bs... I played this on my lowest B of a 4-string playing the low B on the A-string. I was using my 7/8 Shen then and that Bass had some punchy bottom. I think the B an octave lower would get lost in space. It was however written for a 5-string Bass like is usually played in Europe. The B-F- bowed part would then be up and octave on the B and a flatted 5th up on the Low F. Maybe Respighi was going for 'Mud' as the color of the sound..:eek:

On the Extension construction I think I heard Arnold comment about this same problem. The Extension itself bending/bowing forward from tension and becoming a problem. Necks themselves with Ebony fingerboards Bend under tension and have problems. Why wouldn't an Extension made the fraction of the strength bend as well under a single longer string? It will and it does. make it a B which is quite a bit longer than a C and it will bend much easier. make it with maple and a thin Ebony veneer-like fingerboard and you are asking for trouble even with a C-extension.

To be practical and reasonable the best Extension is made from Solid Ebony and goes down to a C note. That will be all anyone needs ever including that once or twice in a lifetime an orchestra bassist might get to play the Pines. Imagine having this B extension and you are the one playing the Bowed part.. lol.. What a waste, huh? Scream, yell, kick, cry.. hey, you are playing on the right, that's your seat.. Play the bottom B/F bowed part..:(

So, my choice are the Extensions like what I have on all my Basses. My favorite is the first chromatic one Arnold made for me and my Martini which is also pictured on Arnold's website as well. I guess he was proud of his work on that Bass as well.

B extension
 

This is a B extension that I fabricated on a Christopher bass. The player was most insistent on the B, and I went against the advice of some esteemed luthiers to make it.

I know the arguments against the B, but according to this player, who is a university student, he won't even be allowed to audition for some orchestras without a B extension. I could not turn him down :confused: .

As it turned out, the functionality of this extension is very easy and the Bass Capos from Rob Anzellotti are very well made.

Thinking back I was wondering how many tools I used to fabricate this extension which is solid ebony. I came up with between 60 and 70! This includes files, planes, knives, computer for calculations, drills, drill press, measuring tools, etc...

The design is deliberately austere, without fuss, with a tip of the hat to Arnold and Jeff B.

I'd like to know what U.S orchestras specify for a "B" extension, if any.

Also, what orchestra is this character going to be auditioning for with a Christopher bass?? Seems more like a youth orchestra...and most of those are very informal about your instrument set-up...

I don't know Calvin Maybe you could ask your question if you are curious.
For now how about we just wish him (this character) luck.

He has quite a while to go and is a pretty good young player, he has established himself with a luthier who will get him through the lean times (me) and is following the advice of his teachers. Just to be clear, his goal is to audition and play in a professional orchestra.

As far as auditioning with a Christopher bass I agree. But he will have prepared himself as his teachers have advised him. :)

Well done Ken, that looks simple and neatly executed.

I'd hate to lug that bass around though ... he almost needs a bull-bar to protect the top!

Thanks Matthew.

We put the bass in the bag and it did not fit. I advised him to cut a slot in the top and put a sock or something over it.

:D

matthew

One critique Ken (McKay). Since the E-side of the Fingerboard is beveled, it would have been nice to see the extension flush with that bevel and not have a little height difference in between. When fingering between E and E-flat in a rapid passage, you can easily cut your hand.

Overall, nice work.

Thanks Calvin, that is good advice.

The extension is beveled, just not quite as much as the Rhomberg. I did not notice any sharp edges but you point is well taken.

I only know of a few pieces that require the Contra B.

Respighi's Pines (most bassists just tune their low string down a semi-tone for that work).
Berg's Wozzeck has a very exposed passage for solo double bass that contains a tone of Low B's, but this was written for a fiver.
Brahms 2 has a tone of low B's if you check out the original two player piano version, today a lot of conductors will ask for the low b in that work.

other than that....nada. Stick with the C...it also resonates with the open G string and you don't need to worry about banging your bass against the ceiling or door!

Ken, you've hit the nail with your head! This is exactly the problem. I have seen several B extensions, and every one of them was warping down at the end, causing a hump in the middle. The player asks, "Can you make the extension buzz go away?". And my answer is, "No, if I take away wood in the center to flatten it out, it will then be weaker and warp even more. Also, the latches won't work right anymore, and will have to be re-mounted." And this is why I won't build B extensions. However, Ken M, yours looks quite sturdy. But can the player get his thumb around the back of it, to hold long non-latched notes?

Ouch..
 

If only I had a hammer..:(

The thing that concerns me the most with those capos and this is speaking from personal experience playing basses with them, is when you run the knife edge of your hand back quickly, the sharp edges of the capos hurt or cut your fingers. With solid ebony fingers, there is more surface to round over and if properly adjusted, it's painless. Also, the extensions I have had from both Arnold and Jeff have a much finer tension adjustability than those threaded adjustments.

Imagine you are playing a piece and then it comes up, a low C .. :eek: .. oops.. forgot to leave the Ext. open.. Hey, no problemo.. I left 'ridge hand' it with a backwards upwards motion and open the low C in a split second.. Also, when playing the chromatic patterns like in Beeth 3rd, how fast can you close the stops? No looking, one handed, one index finger hooking the 'larger' smoothed out fine tension adjusted ebony fingers.. Much easier that the right angle cut rubber over flush cut brass.. You think?

The thumb goes in there just fine except when trying to stop the Eflat. That gets tight. I left it thick for sturdiness.

I will be seeing the bass again when Christmas break comes and will get an update. I am sure this forum will be here for years to come and I will update eithier good or bad comments.

and one more..
 

We finally took new pics of the Big Gamba and updated the webpage so here's some shots of the new Bollbach Chromatic Ext..

http://www.kensmithbasses.com/double...-right-med.jpghttp://www.kensmithbasses.com/double...roll-front.jpghttp://www.kensmithbasses.com/double...l-left-med.jpg

Ken,

Are you sure you are talking about my Capos? For one thing I have never used rubber for the fingers. I tightly wrap leather over the brass (with generous amounts of CA glue to make it permanent), and sand and polish the end, which is not a sharp right angle, but has enough roundover to be comfortable.

The rotational friction is adjustable, but since I carefully set it before shipping, further adjustment is almost never desired.

As for speed, I can pop open the Eb with my index finger while in the act of going for a low D or C# without adding any time at all to the equation. While Arnold and Jeff both make excellent ebony closers, I really don't think they are faster than mine. My Capos are carefully machined with CNC technology, and the angles carefully chosen so that pressure against the string provides all the holding power necessary. Therefore, they need only minimal rotational friction to prevent rattling and to resist gravity.

My first version of Capos had a set screw to adjust tension (friction, actually). Perhaps that is the example you remember, and it was set way to tight. That would also explain the hurt fingers you describe.

I urge you to try Bass Capos again. I think you will change your mind. While many prefer ebony closers for aesthetic reasons, no one else has ever been less than entirely positive about operation.

C extension
 

Hi. I'd like to throw my hat in the ring here. I've worked on other people's extensions but never made my own from scratch. Some people have been inquiring so I figured it was time. It's solid ebony, fitted to a new Romanian bass. It's screwed down to the neck under the nut but not the scroll or cheeks.

It functions well. I would have done a couple things differently but next time I'll avoid those mistakes. Next time I'd like to make a two pulley extension that avoids the hole through the scroll (if the dimensions of the bass permits)

It's installed on a bass for sale so I think I'll wait to add capos or a fingering rail until the customer knows what he wants.

Hopefully the pictures work.

Any thoughts?