Bass with Lion head scroll. Need help Identifying it
 

There has been much debate on when and where the bass was made. There is only 1 label inside that I can see that says it was repaired in March of 1961 by Goltz and Mayne. My Grandfather owned the bass for over 60 years and got it from his dad prior to that. The bass has been in my family for like 70, 80 years. Many people claim it is German. Possibly from Mittenwalde late 1800's. But then I found out about Jakobus Stainer. He made instruments with the exact same lion face scrolls. It may be one of his or a copy of his work from later mittenwalde. Stainer died in like 1683. So I am very confused about this.

Ken, I would really appreciate some help from you. You seem to know what your talking about. That is why I had to post on here as well as Talkbass. I am in Chicago. I have an appointment to see a luthier tomorrow. Im hoping he tells me something. In the meantime, if there is anyone that would like to add thier input, please do. Thank you- Chris.

Jakobus Stainer??
 

Keep dreaming about Stainer. I have seen one head of his and one of Klotz. They were works of art. This bass you have is not, sorry. Your bass's trees may not have been planted yet when Stainer even died as well!

Heads like on yours are made on low cost Violins thru basses in Germany about a 100 years ago or so from what I have seen. Stainer Copies as far as labeled and markings were very common.

What I can't see so well is your Bass. A roundback Violin cornered bass with this lion on it? Doesn't match for me. Maybe the head was on another bass or the shop offered them in both Gamba and violin models as well. Many years ago I saw a bass with this head on it and asked what it was. "Just a German bass' the Luthier replied.

Watch Ebay in the Violins/strings. You will see heads like this from time to time. These are more like machine carved heads and not the beautiful French or Tirol lionheads I have seen in the past.

Your bass may be better than its head. I need to SEE the Bass. Straight shots with the lights on. Like the pics of my basses on my website. Just the facts as far as the angles. Boring shots that show me the bass. Show me everything there is to see, clear as day. http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/mittenwald/

As Ken said, lots of instruments from around 1900- are labeled Stainer but they're really just German shop instruments. I have a violin from my great grandfather which is also labeled Stainer but it was purchased in Germany from a shop new from around 1880.

Here are photos of the "Stainer" 1645, Absam bass.

http://www.musikland-tirol.at/images...tainerbass.jpg

http://www.musikland-tirol.at/musiki...ss-detail.html

As you can see, the level of quality in this bass is not exactly the same as your instrument. But that's okay.

So far, I have come across a few scrolls that have very similar lion head carvings. Does anyone know about any of these?

??
 

German factory made copies for the most part. That was the style of the cheap lion copy then.

Were these all carved individually, or on some machine for the most part? Are they all identical?

wel..
 

I wasn't there so I don't know for sure. What it looks like to me is some kind of carving machine roughing them out and various workers, possibly cottage industry with people working at home cleaning up the machine marks and individualizing them by natural inaccurate hand work.

That is my take on them. From the Violin heads to the bass heads they all look like they are based on the same pattern but not made accurate enough to be consistent from head to head.

I have seen some extremely beautiful Lion head basses and owned two of them myself. I remember playing Richard Davis's bass one night before he packed it up at the Vanguard and the Lion on that bass was alive. Another bass is Hal Robinson's bass with what is called a Gargoyle carved head. Outstanding details. Then many years ago I worked with an elder gentleman in a small Orchestra by the name of Irv Manning. An English import living in NYC. He had a bass with a beautifully carved woman's head. He called that bass 'The Lady'. Jeff Bollbach made a beautiful detailed Lion as well a few years ago. That bass will be a classic one day. The details in the hair and eyes are beyond words.

So, when I see these German factory heads I don't get all that excited. Also, the Bass this one is on is from a different maker, different period and different part of the country. Like putting a Ford emblem on a Chevy. It just doesn't fit.

The bass above is a round backed, violin cornered bass. This is not something you usually see from the Mittenwald area. That is mainly flat-back Gamba country for basses, some with lower rounded corners (aka Busetto).

Also, the town of Mittenwald is/was home to 100s of violin/wood workers and wood carvers. Some of the heads could have been made by hand but again, I wasn't there. It's all just a guess.

At Eddie Condon's on 54th St, there was a large mural on the east wall that featured among others, Bob Casey with "The Lady". I used to see it from the bandstand and asked around; this is the info I got. "The Lady" was owned by both Bob Casey & Bob Haggart and possibly Red Balaban. As far as I know, it is now owned by Phil Flanagan.

'THE Lady'
 

What bass are we talking about? What year/s are we talking about? There might be more than one bass with that same nick name.

Here is a bass called 'The OLD Lady', attributed to G.P. Maggini with the head by Benvenuto Cellini; http://www.thwaites.com/images/siteimages/oldlady.jpg

Note: Not everyone agrees the Bass is by Maggini and the Head, well Cellini died 10 years before Maggini was born. Still, these are the attributes attached to this beautiful old bass.

Here are some more pics I have of the bass. They are not pro bass pics. They are not properly taken but I thought I would add them here so people can see some differnt angles of the bass. :eek:

"What bass are we talking about? What year/s are we talking about? There might be more than one bass with that same nick name."

I was referring to the bass you saw when it was owned by Irv Manning-it was pretty well known among the "Condon gang".

http://www.hannaphil.com/phil.html

The bass has a neck/fingerboard that is very thin in width. The fingerboard does not stretch out as wide as basses normally are. This was told to me by a luthier. In the pic below you can see the fingerboard is just surrounding my thumb. Not very wide at all. The luthier did measure it but I forgot what he said the exact inches are. A little weird. No?

Why not grab a ruler and measure it; maybe you have toe thumbs. :D

lolol..I was going to mention that my thumbs are not huge or abnormal.

pics from the link..
 

I would love to ID this bass as well;
http://hannaphil.files.wordpress.com...-005.jpg?w=800http://hannaphil.files.wordpress.com...-004.jpg?w=600

There are several other pics of the bass being played by the owner but without permission, I am not comfortable posting his personal likeness as well as the other musicians with him.

ID/Head
 

As far as the original Lion posted, I recently spoke to the most recent restorer of the bass after it was sold from your possession. He is of the opinion that the lionhead and the bass are original to each other. This is probably a turn of the century Saxon bass by the model of the bass. The heads could have easily been supplied by nearby Bohemia across the border, Mittenwald or even made in Saxony. It is doubtful that heads like this are made by the actual maker.

Speaking of making an ID, I have an older bass with a Lionhead I would love to ID as well. My bass might be from the same area made 50-100 years earlier.

http://www.kensmithbasses.com/double...croll-left.jpghttp://www.kensmithbasses.com/double...front-full.jpg

Any ideas? By the way, this bass was cut down a long long time ago. Both the upper and lower bouts were reduced. Only the C-bout purfling looks to be original. Smaller violin sized purfling. The back as a huge arch of well over 2". The gears are neither original or as old as the bass is.

It looks like Paul Chambers' bass ;-)

no..
 

The bass itself is not like his bass at all. His was darker and more German looking. This one was believed to be English back about 40 years ago. I don't know what they are calling it now. The only similarity I think is that they both have a Lady on the head, Paul's was added, not original I was told and they are both Gamba shaped.

It's been 40-42 years since I played next to it so forgive me for my memory lapse if any.. lol

http://www.thejazzman.com.au/Page/im...amber_bass.jpg and with outer linings; http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m9...9osvo1_400.gif ..also. Pauls's Lady is looking a bit downwards. The other bass is looking outwards!

yes of course, I didn't mean THAT bass to be Paul's one. They just look similar to me, with the lady on top, and both gamba shaped. I'd be surprised to discover the bass you are presenting is a certified English one...just looks like a nice German factory bass (like P.C.'s bass to be honest...)...

The outer linings on the other bass look to be flush with the ribs. Different than on Paul's bass. It was called English (I think?) 42 years ago when I saw it. I really don't know what it is but regardless, it's a different style bass aside from the gamba shape than Paul's bass is. It could be German or Austrian as well. The gear plates do not fit all that well so I doubt those are the original gears as well. In either case, the are both nice basses.