Upton Basses
 

Upton Basses....

I would love to hear what luthiers and other players think of them.

2-5k
 

In that range, the Calin Wultur Basses are at least as good as any Upton Bass. From what I have been told, the Uptons are from Romania made in the Gliga shop just like the Plywoods from JR Music, maker of the Calin Wulters where E.Roy used to work. I bought 6 Corsini Basses for stock and was extremely impressed as were my customers who bought them. I think the Shens are made at least as good if not better than most Romanian Basses and the New Standard line is another good option at over 4k.

I took my Upton Hybrid bass over to KC Strings recently at the owner's request. Micha said he had heard of the Uptons and would like to check out the competition. The first thing he did was pull one of his Romanian basses from inventory and compare. His bass, http://www.kcstrings.com/bass-rc-williams.html is fully carved, but bears a remarkable resemblance to my Hawkes apart from price.
Same dimensions, exact same scroll etc. There are differences.
The Hawkes lacks a horizontal bar across the back to support the soundpost and the bass bar is smaller, but Misha insisted that they are from the same family tree.
No less than five pro bassists in town have played my bass and given it the thumbs up. My teacher for one considered buying one as a backup.
Another, played several tunes on it at a jam session and raved about it's tone and playability. He thought it was too easy to play, preferring his Prescott lol. :D
I don't know how they would compare with the Calin Wultur basses, but I suspect neither would be embarrassed.

One of these days, Bob can give my bass his opinion. I would value that highly. Bob, let me know when you're feeling up to it.

Ken,
I agree that the Calin Wultur does look similar to the Upton basses and being fully carved, they may be better. They are also at least $1000 more. Quality has a price.
:(

Plywood!
 

I was referring to this model;

http://www.jrmusicsupply.com/photos/..._basic_L_f.jpghttp://www.jrmusicsupply.com/photos/..._basic_L_b.jpg

http://www.jrmusicsupply.com/photos/...m_sp_pan_f.jpghttp://www.jrmusicsupply.com/photos/...m_sp_pan_b.jpg

They are NOT $1,000. more. I think they list for around 2k.

I knew you would set me straight. That hybrid does look EXACTLY like my bass.:eek:
.................................................. ...............................................

Okay, I've settled down. I still like it and think it's a good bass for the money.

Ken,
I know you have experience with other Calin Wultur basses, but what is your experience with this particular model. I do value your experience here.

Ken, thanks for the info. This Gliga on ebay is the spitting image of my Upton hybrid. It seems like the consensus is that the Gliga's are decent basses for the money. I always wondered where my Upton originated, but when I was talking with Gary Birkhamshaw before buying the bass he was cagey about where the bases came from. I'm not sure why he felt this needed to be a secret, seems like a positive point to me.

Anyway, to Jeff's original question; I've been pleased with my bass and I've gotten good comments from folks who have heard it. I like the sound and I find it easy to play. Part of the reason I went with Upton was the lack of local bass shops and little time to make road trips to bigger cities with any real selection of basses. Locally most of what I could find were 1/2 size basses since the only market is the local orchestra programs. There were a couple of 3/4 used Chinese laminates (not Shens) for a lot more than my budget and the shop had little interest in haggling.

I started out planning to spend $1500 on a Medio Fino laminate and talked myself into a Hawkes laminate at $1800. Then good news on my taxes last year and a little side income pushed me up to the hybrid Medio Fino at $2500. Had I realized that I was going to be in that price range in the beginning I'd probably considered some other options, but at my original budget of $1500 there were not a lot of choices, especially since I needed to get something that was reasonably well set up and playable and that I could get shipped to me. I could have done a lot worse and almost did until I came to my senses.

To be honest this is my first bass so I don't have the kind of experience that Ken or some of the other folks here have. It meets my current needs and I should be able to recover most of my costs if I do decide to trade up at some point.

'this model'
 

Personally I have not played one either by Upton or JR. I have talked to Rich at JR (the 'R' in JR) about these and others coming from Gliga and know a bit about them from the inside look as far as construction and Varnish. I was going to buy in the 3/4 sloped shoulder version some for a local School last year but the deal did not happen. I was between these and the Shens and it was a tough decision. I think either Bass would have filled the required needs but the School liked hearing "European Bass" better than "Chinese Bass" for around the same money.

Ron, that Ebay guy buys from JR so that may be the same Bass. You did just fine in your purchase and in the $2500 range. Rest assured, the market is limited and you found one of the better ones for that price.

In my Business I try to buy and represent only what I personally trust. The Calin Wulturs I brought in are fine Basses and if I have a problem, I just call Rich at JR and we work it out. With Shen Basses John is the guy I call over there but sometimes I talk to Paul whom I first met in 1997 with Sam. They too have great customer service.

When I went into this recent Bow business venture I called John and got some good advice from him. Luckily, I am dealing with a good Shop but the Culture is what you have to work with and not 'just' the Shop. If you ask for lower Priced goods and strip down the Bow (like Upton does with them) they will give you the lowest grade Sticks in the Barrel. If you demand only the highest quality and stay on their backs every shipment and pay the extra charges for these extra qualities, they will send you good stuff.

Basses and Bows can be very expensive especially coming from the BG/Slab world. An entry level DB is priced in the Boutique range of the BGs. A Boutique/Vintage/Classic (or anything else you can name it) is priced somewhere between a good Car and your House!

Makers/Suppliers have to struggle to get Basses made to sell for under 4k. I have talked to Arnold about this many times and have some understanding about his operation and why he does what he does the way he does it. The Necks he gets for the Standards are carved up at the Scroll only and the Heel/Block area is completely raw and un-shaped by the neck as well. These Necks can also be used as replacements for other Germanic Basses needing a new Neck as the Heel/Block area is at least 6" tall and ready to fit any Bass. This way, Arnold has total control of the Neck-Set and 'which' actual Neck goes into which Bass. With the Uptons from Gliga, the Necks are in the Bass already and you get only what he gets. For the price he sells them, I don't think 'Neck swapping' is on his option list. With the 'New Standard' Bass, you get what you pay for and the sound, well just TOO good for the money. I was there yesterday and heard one and mentioned that it sounded much more expensive than the price tag to 'MY' ear, for what that's worth..

Thanks for clarifying. FWIW, I was really holding out for a hybrid LaScala but couldn't afford one. For the foreseeable future, my Upton labeled Romanian bass is just fine.

Thanks Ken, I'm a big believer in the old adage of "you get what you pay for" and among the instruments I own, my humble little bass is far and away the most expensive. But I've always tried to at least get something that can be played. There was some real sticker shock when I decided I just had to play bass.

In the meantime, I'll keep window shopping the many fine instruments you and others have posted. I just wish I was close enough to stop by and play one or two. Ah, that's probably not a good idea, that could be the next step on the slippery slope to me living in my bass bag while all my money goes to alimony, child support, and bass payments. :D

I finally got around to changing out the year-old Obligato strings and installed a set of Spirocore Mittels on my Upton hybrid. While the Spiros are still fresh and zingy, I think its pretty clear that this bass likes the higher tension strings (roughly about the same on the G, +5 lbs on the D, +9 lbs on the A, and +10 lbs on the E). More volume and a clearer fundamental. The bass seems to respond faster; and even with my very limited bowing skills, I find the Spiros as easy, or easier, to bow versus the Obligatos. With my current setup I can't detect any real difference in left or right hand effort. So for me, more and clearer sound with no more work. So based on a single sample point, if you have one of these basses or one of their Romanian brethren and haven't used a higher tension string, you may want to give them a try.

I agree that the Mittels are great on the Upton, but I prefer the Obligatos. They feel a lot nicer to me, although I do think the Mittels may have a bit more punch. Different strokes.

If this is out of line, just can it. I don't have any problem with that. I think Upton's might be a little obscure about their sources because of how easy it would be for customers to deal directly with Romanian suppliers. And you can deal with them for about half the price of dealing with Upton. Factory Romanian instruments almost all come from one city. Up until the dissolution of the USSR, they were all built under one roof, now known as the Hora company. There have always been a few independent makers, but the more recent of these, like Gliga, were trained at the state factory in Reghin. So it stands to reason that any instrument coming from Romania, particularly lower price point instruments, is being built by similar methods, if not under the same roof. Buyers of instruments in quantity can probably specify a few small differences, like for instance an Upton Hawkes recently was shown with no notches in the f-holes (Of course that might have been oversight also). Also insturments can be purchased "in the white" and Upton does this so that they can add their own finish. Also they perform the service of setting up the bass.

By and large though, without exclusive contracts, Hora will supply to anyone waving cash. I actually pondered buying a whole shipping container full of Romanian instruments. If you know how to varnish violins and do the set-up and repair work, the import supplier is a no brainer. So it really comes down to the value of the service of the retailer / importer. Lots of violins and basses come out of Romania. Not all are created equally, but they can't be too far apart at entry level prices.

Also if we consider DB's in the white to be a commodity, Uptons can change it's supplier if the supplier is not well known. Suddenly the Hawkes could be made in Czech Republic, or anywhere else.

varnish violins and do the set-up and repair work??
 

David, you always come up with this theory stuff. The price of the Raw un-varnished Bass is less than the work to be performed here once it arrives.

I suggest you buy your container of Basses and let us know how you do. It is easy to say these things but planing a FB and cutting a Bridge is not for the novice by any means.

I have some Basses coming in soon from the Gliga factory via JR Music. A Plywood Corsini style and a Hybrid Panormo (aka Hawkes) model but Varnished by the Calin Wultur shop. The Hybrid is Plywood back only with solid bent Maple Ribs.

Gliga and Wultur have ther own shops. It doesn't matter where they were trained. Also, I don't think everything from one country is exactly the same and that goes for Romania, Hungary, China Germany, Italy etc.

What matters is the final product, workmanship inside and out, materials and the final tonal musical results.

I will post pics in a month or so after they come in and I do the basic set-up. I will be fitting the Bridge (no adjusters), setting the Post and adjusting the playability and I advertise 'Basic set-up' only. I have my reasons for this and have been successful with it. I have heard too many stories or people changing Bridges, adjusters, Tail pieces, strings, end pins, and more to want to be part of that club. This way, I sell it playable and the customer can pick his favorite guy and not have to pay for it twice.

When you deal with the Likes of Arnold, Jeff or Nick it usually only needs to be done once. I have most of my personal work done by Arnold and then some by Jeff as he is available so you can take my word for it. Find the best guy for the Job, do it only once and avoid paying double.

I get offers from time to time for Instruments direct from Shops and usually look and then keep walking. It is a tough business to be in and I respect those doing it successfully.

David, this was a good topic to bring up. Would you buy an Upton and then take it to Arnold for his Bridge, Graphite Rods and new fingerboard adding almost 100% more to the cost or... Just buy from the guy who's work you like most?

I was going thru this same set-up thing myself a few months ago with my Mystery Bass. Biase is doing the work but now I like how Arnold has done a few Basses for me in the last couple of years. I was going to have Paul do the neck Graft, then take it to Arnold for Graphite rods and then back to Biase for the FB and completion. With the Bridge I was going to have it made Blank and then have Arnold put his adjusters in it.

THEN, I looked at My Gilkes Bridge cut by Biase in 1982 still good except the Neck was moved out and needed a taller Bridge AND my Martini has a Biase Bridge from 3 Years ago and looks and works fine..

Then I thought, no way!! Biase does and has done just fine for me since 1975 or so and just because Arnold has some new Hip stuff, there is no reason to take and split the Job from a veteran like Biase and maybe muddy up the waters relationship wise.

I called Biase and apologized for even thinking of doing that and told him I want his work all the way on that Bass as that was why I gave him the Job in the first place.

Ah.. did I go off topic here?:o

I just got back from a 2,000 mile road trip and having lots of time to think I came to the same conclusion. It's not relevant where shop XX gets the raw material, it's the final product that matters and if they're willing to stand behind it, that's what counts.

Probably, but it's your sandbox :D. It was a good point just the same. You're fortunate to have a selection of great luthiers to patronize. Out here in the wild west, there's one guy locally - a retired orchestra teacher who did a fine job on a setup on a violin for me a few years ago, but I don't know how his work is on a bass. He might be great, but for my first bass I wasn't prepared to take the risk. Now that I have some idea of what a decent setup should feel and sound like, I might give him a try on a second bass, if I could figure out how to hide a second bass from my wife :D

Good set-up guy..
 

I would like to hear from Arnold who is not only a player but one of the top Bass Luthiers in the country if not the world. Maybe there are 50-100 guys world wide who do his level of work and maybe only 5-10% can do better. Maybe it would be nice to make a list to see how many are out there BUT they must be at the level to restore old Classic Basses with good proven results.

On the Arnold thing, he has trained two other Luthiers that I know of. One is Zach Martin and the other is Jed Kriegel who works in the shop currently. Jed does great work as I have seen this for myself. Being 20+ years younger than Arnold, we will be looking to him in the future like some New Yorkers now see Gage and Merchant instead of Traeger who trained them decades ago. The trade must be passed on and on.

If your local guy does good set-ups, there is no guarantee he can do good restorations. That's like saying a person can patch a cut on the finger but can he do surgery on your Heart or Brain. In the Medical field they have specialists for every organ of your Body. In Bass restoration, although not as life threatening as medicine, you have one Restorer for everything. It's good to have someone who knows just about everything and who knows your Bass as your Doctor may know your body, hopefully.

I've never had a bass restored but after reading about the work you've had done, I totally agree. It appears to take both the skill to do the physical work, which looks to be at least a level or two beyond basic setup work, and more importantly, a deep knowledge of the instrument to know what is appropriate to do and what is not.

My local guy may have been fine for setup but the fact that the shop where he works had mostly 1/2 size basses, and the two 3/4 size basses on hand were way overpriced, made me reluctant. They mostly cater to the local school band and orchestra programs. I sure wouldn't take him a restoration without seeing examples of his work. To be fair, I haven't asked him to do any work on my bass and based on his reputation I'd expect him to be up front about what he thinks he can or can't do.

I'd be interested in Arnold's and Jeff's take on how to evaluate a luthier before committing to one; either for setup or restoration. Getting recommendations via internet discussion groups seems to work only for big cities and even those are sometimes scarce.

Now -- that's off topic :D. Feel free to move some of this over to the Lutherie section since it's independent of the seller of the bass.

I have had the opportunity to compare my Upton Hawkes Hybrid to my teacher's 200 year old German carved bass. I started studying with Bassist extraordinaire, Mike Richmond. He played both basses and this is what I heard. FWIW

ARCO
200 year old German Bass - Very mellow top end, there was no lack of top end but it was very easy on the ears. Scooped mid range. That is, has a quality to the mid range that colors the sound in pronounced way. I would describe it as a distinct and unique voice for a double bass. Tight and full lowend. This bass disperses it's sound in a way that surrounds you. You get directionality from the mids and highs but the low end surrounds you, if that makes any sense.

Dec. 2006 Upton Hawkes Hybrid - 20% louder than the fully carved vintage bass, top end was very pronounced. Not obnoxious but not mellow. Midrange and bottom were pretty well balanced but without a distinct complexity or distinct personality. It sounds like a very good bass but not one that you would instantly be able to identify as having a completely identifiable character. This bass disperses it's sound very directionally.

Pizz.
200 year old German Carved Bass - tons of growl- holy cow. Great warm bottom. Midrange uniqueness less prevalent in pizzicato playing.

Dec. 2006 Upton Hawkes Hybrid - once again, substantially louder. More punch in the low end. I assume that's a function of the loudness difference. Brighter than the German Bass.

Conclusion
In the hands of Mike Richmond, that carved German bass sounds rediculously good. The distinct and complex character of the sound make listening to it a joy.
The Upton sounded very good. I mean very good. Not complex but still very musical and pleasing.
I guess a Beaujolais Noveau vs a fine red at it's prime would be the best comparison I can come up with. Certainly, not junk by any account and I will be able to grow musically with this bass.

Jeff,
Very interesting comparison and similar to my experience as well.
My teacher has two basses.
One, a 19th century carved bass, probably German. My Hawkes is much louder and fuller sounding, although it lacks the deepest fundamental of the older bass.
The other is a 7/8 carved Rodier that Bob Branstetter played for many years, so it is tuned to perfection. Both basses are wearing Obligatos at the moment. The Hawkes is about equal in volume and has a similar tonality, but lacks in a couple of areas. First, the Rodier is quicker. It has a pronounced edge to the attack where my bass is quite a bit slower. Second, my bass lacks the complexity of tone of the older and much more expensive bass. That said, In the few times I've been able to compare side by side, the Hawkes holds its own quite well.

One of these days or months I'll leave it with Bob for a few days to see what he can do to improve it, but I'm in no hurry. For a new bass it feels and sounds pretty darn good, especially for the price.

Greg,
In my opinion, my bass got a lot better sounding after luthier Bill Merchant, got his hands on it. He moved the bridge a bite, he moved the sound post forward (towards the neck) approximately 1/2 inch. The bass came alive. This stuff is so subjective but my bass definatly sounded better than the way it came from the Upton Shop. I think your bass might benefit from having Bob do his thing too.

I don't wanna come off the wrong way, but I need to ask this question for my own satisfaction. If Upton has these basses built in a factory in Romania and all they do is varnish, add fingerboard, bridge, soundpost, end-pin, and set-up. What makes these basses so different than any other factory bass (hybrid or carved) in the same price range set-up by the luthier of your choice.

I'd like to know because I'm sort of considering a Professor bass or saving a bit more scratch and getting a NS LaScala Hybrid or carved if possible.

What makes these basses so different??
 

"What makes these basses so different"?.. 'Nothing' really! These Basses I believe come from the Gliga workshop. Eroy used to work for JR Music who makes and sells the Calin Wultur line of string instruments. After moving to Upton, he brought his contacts with him from what I understand. JR offers this same Bass in both Hybrid and Plywood with two 'finish' choices. One is lacquer from Gliga and the other is Varnish from Wultur which is an upgrade.

I bought 6 Basses from JR and sold most of them already. I just ordered a basic ply and a hybrid upgraded. I am the only shop near Philly so I have to have Basses in all ranges. Having just high end doesn't get the job done if you are going to service the area with Basses for sale.

Not to advertise above but pointing out my 'first hand' experience is more believable than just theory. The NS Basses from AES (Arnold and Wil) are completely different. These are from Basses made in good shop Germany with the Necks shipped separate. Arnold's shop sets and fits the neck for proper angle and neck stand as well as carves the heel and neck stop to order. Upton doesn't put the neck in as you can see from the link above on Upton.

What would I prefer if asked? Well, Upton has good to great lengths to try and corner this market flooding TalkBass with Ads and even threads and postings to back up their claims. I call it the TalkUpton website because I had trouble over there trying to discuss anything else without moderator interference to protect their 'income' from Upton. SO.. I would go with the JR for the lower price point or a Shen and then the New Standard Basses for the 'elite' type plywood, hybrid or even fully carved. I see no difference in a fullly carved Cleveland or La Scala model and lets say a Wilfer or Stoll Bass Grade or quality wise. The difference is that you get one of the top Restoration shops in the country doing the same neck set work as any member of the NY Philarmonic, Met Opera orch, NYC Ballet Orch, National Symphony, Boston Sym, etc as I have seen many old classic Basses in Arnolds shop getting work done. It's nice to know the 'elite' goes there as well as the beginner and intermediate players including all styles of playing. This is not something you will find at Upton otherwise it would be all over his website in his repair section as he does not get this clientele on a regular basis from what I have heard.

Choices are then Shen or JR in the 2k range and NS in the 4k and up. Deal with the best shop you can find. How can you tell which is the best shop? Ask the Bass section in your local Symphony who they trust their English, Italian and French Orchestra Basses with the most if price was no object.

An Upton Bass is a Gliga Bass without the Varnish, Fingerboard and with LaFaro copy FF holes which in my opinion is NOT a Prescott Bass. The name Hawkes and Professor are 'borrowed' from the English firm that contracted Basses mainly in Germany called 'Hawkes Panormo' in 3 grades being the Concert, Professor and Hawkes. The Hawkes is reported to be made in England but this is not 100% proven. Also, Basses were made in France under the name 'Riviere and Hawkes' which mainly look like a French Jacquet Bass. I was offered a Bass for sale once that looked to be a 'Paul Claudot Bass' but passed on it. Later it was sold and opened up only to discover it had and inscription inside the table marked 'Riviere and Hawkes'. Look at my Links just above and see how these two could be easily confused.

The higher shouldered JR Basses from Gliga are called a Panormo model as that's exactly what they copied to make the Hawkes over 100 years ago in England. I like original names and if you are going to copy something at least give credit where it's due. The Professor model was a lower grade than the Hawkes model made about 100 years ago. Upton is now reversing these two putting the Professor name in 'lights' as if it's some improvement.

I already have a Czech factory bass (hybrid Strunal). I've had the fingerboard, bridge, tailgut, replaced at Gage. So basically I have a bass similar to an Upton? I love the sound of my bass and don't feel a real need to make a sideways move. I think I'm going to take a trip to Gage, 30 minutes by subway instead of 2 or more hours to Connecticut, during the week (SPRING BREAK!) and look at some basses in the $5,000 range. Then I'm going to see if Arnold has a NS in stock that I can check out and take a drive to his place.

Ken,
I completely understand your comments and can't really argue the validity of any of them. However, a couple of things come to mind.
Finishes: If the basses come with either a lacquer or varnish (upgrade) finish, what is the price difference. The Uptons come with an oil varnish tinted to the customer's preference. This is their standard finish.
Comparing them to a NS is a fair comparison, but there is a significant price difference. Several top bassists in town, including a member of the KC Symphony, have played my bass and commented on the fine setup. None have mentioned any problem with the neck set. My teacher told me he had never seen as nice a bass for so little money. I'm not disputing the potential benefit of Arnolds methods; merely the practical benefits in terms of value. A LaScala is a beautiful bass, but twice the price of my Upton and certainly out of my price range.
FF's and Hype: I agree with you on this. Personally, I don't care at all how some designer came up with my FF's. Give me a classic design that fits the bass and don't make a big deal about it.
I do agree that Upton occasionally crosses the line on TB. They are trying to build a business and sell product. Were I in their position, I would like to think I'd lower the hype, but I can't say for sure.
Sizzle helps to sell the steak.:D
Due to the fact that I live in Kansas, much of what you are saying is theoretical anyway. There aren't any Shen, Wultur or NS basses within hundreds of miles of me. KC Strings offers a Chinese line that frankly doesn't compare. Another shop offers Eastmans on a special order basis carrying no stock. Then there are the guys like Branstetter who may have a bass or two on occasion. In my market, the supply is limited. Had I purchased a Gigla bass from JR for instance, by the time I paid shipping, and a full set up, the bass would have been much more than $2000.
The Upton came to me with a great set up, oil varnish in the color of my choosing for $2600. Even at the current price of $2900, I think they are a fair value given the level of set up offered. For me it was a good choice. If I lived in a larger city with more choices, I may have made a different choice.

One more thing. Calling an Upton a Hawkes, Panormo or whatever has no significance with me. It's like the guy in Phoenix calling his bass 'Wan Bernadel' lol. They could have called my bass 'Design #1' for all I care.

But again, names do affect the marketability of products. Remember the Edsel?:D

availability...
 

Here is the dealer list for JR; http://www.jrmusicsupply.com/stores.htm

I can see how availability can make the difference as well as free shipping offered but I just want to point out what is and what isn't and give some other options.

Of course their Basses have merits in their class. They are just not the only game in town, that's all.

I was asking if an Upton bass would be a reasonable upgrade for someone with a factory bass that has all the perks of an Upton (new fingerboard, bridge, end pin)? Or should I set my sites on something a little higher up the food chain (NS or older European bass in the same price range)?

I have seen so many Romanian basses with the same design as the Upton's. My school (City College of New York) recently purchased a 12 year old Romanian bass, with a very dark and antiqued finish for $10,000 my teacher went to Gage's and picked it out, needless to say it sounds fantastic. I know a player who has a 5 year old solid bass, also Romanian, very similar to the Upton that he paid about the same price they want for the professor. Personally I think the bass my school purchased WOULD be a reasonable upgrade soundwise, but the other Romanian I mentioned isn't that impressive. It just gets me thinking.

I'm very happy with my bass at the moment, but I know that an upgrade will serve me well in the future. I'm curious about Upton because of the price.

Upgrade...
 

An upgrade from your Factory Bass should NOT be another Factory Bass which is what an Upton is actually. They don't make the Bass. Also, I am not sure their so called Oil Varnish is any better than what they could get directly from Romania. Jeff Bollbach finished his Pallota Lion with oil Varnish using about 17 thin coats sun-dried between coats. Now that is better than a factory Varnish BUT the cost is greater than what Upton paid for their Bass in the white from Romania. I Highly doubt they put a tenth of the work into varnishing a plywood Bass. Also, WHO is doing this Varnish work? A Pro maker or a teenager from the skateboard park? Jeff's Bass was made for the ISB competition. Would Upton enter their 'hand oil varnished' 'Hawkes' (lol) in an ISB competition for the Judges to view their work for the world. I'm sorry but every time I hear the name Hawkes and Upton I have to take a deep breath because a Hawks Bass is actually a Hawkes Panormo copy supplied to Boosey & Hawkes or Hawkes & Son in London c.1880 - c1925 or so. The earlier dates yielding Riviere-Hawkes models made in Mirecourt France and the latter from Germany or a few maybe from London or finished in London.

The first thing a player does when testing out a Bass is playing over the shoulders to get up to thumb position. The Dragonetti (a standard piece) requires playing harmonics way past the fingerboard on all strings but the E. The Hawkes shape is not one I would buy for this kind of work. Why make a modern Bass or maybe promote one that has a shape that has caused so many Basses to be cut-down in order to play the upper registers?

Anyway, as you can see I am not much of a fan of Uptons in any shape or form, sorry. Some of it is personal from how I was 'muted' over on TalkBass by the mods when I got into discussions and even had a post deleted by them because it pointed the finger 'in gest' mind you at their tactics to get attention. Even if their Bass was the better of the two from the JR version, I would not do business with them. That's my personal opinion.

Now, back to your upgrade question again. Tell us your budget with or without trade and you will get some suggestions. If you don't know Paul Biase in NYC, then PM me for his info. He IS the top shop in NY for high grade Basses and has a few mid and lower cost Basses as well. I know him for 35 years and would be dealing with him if I were still living in the city. As a matter of fact, he is restoring my Mystery Bass besides us working together on some other sales or Basses, Bows and even Violins. From a Juzek Bass to a Strad Violin, this is all common ground for Biase. If you like, feel free to show some pics of your current Bass in the designated Forum.

My budget right now is in the $5,000 area, it could go a bit higher if the right bass comes along. As for a trade I was hoping to keep my old bass as a back-up to whatever new bass I purchased. I see that ideal has two Wilfer # 10's for about that and I know Gage has a few basses in that range. I'd like to see what Basie has to offer as well.

Jeff's bass is considerably nicer than 99.999999 % of the basses out there. To compare the varnish on a $2900 instrument is just inane. :eek: Would they enter a $2900 bass for the ISB to judge???? Of course not.

There are a lot of choices available to anyone considering a bass. You have a personal bias against Upton, and I know you aren't alone, but they do have many satisfied customers.

Don't worry about me turning this into TB. I have always said that I have been happy with my bass and think Upton merits consideration in the price range. If I had twice the money, I would probably be playing a NS, BTW. I know exactly what you are talking about over on TB and I partially agree, but running down the competition isn't becoming. The Ken Smith I've come to know and respect is bigger than that. :D There's plenty to go around.

the Point...
 

Not really trying to run them down as you put it unless they have been placed a bit too high for the claims they make as well as the other boasters echoing their claims. This being the Varnish issue for one. Yes Jeff's is one of the best Varnish jobs you can get BUT why does Upton brag about doing it themselves? Are they better than a real Bass maker in the Gliga shop that Varnishes for a living day in and day out? I will be getting two Basses from JR soon that has both the Gliga Varnish and the Wultur upgrade they offer on the Gliga supplied Plys and Hybrids. Then I will know better what Romania has to offer. The 6 Basses I got before were all nice in the Varnish department but Spirit and not Oil and as you mention a $2900 Bass 'retail' why would they ever bother varnishing it themselves unless the shop finish was just not good at all? What level of finish professionally actually goes on that Bass from Upton?

The Upton line has their merits and their place in the market. That is obvious but to see so much praise by some first time Bass buyers should be taken for face value. If we start to see a bunch of French, English and Italian Basses for sale on Ebay from the Philly Orch, NY Phil etc. and the Bass sections filling up with Upton 'Hawkes' Plywoods and Hybrids, THEN and only then will these boasting claims have any real merit earned to get my attention.

Until then, they are no more than another Shop Brand Bass with some overly promoted features that easily join the ranks of more modestly promoted brands and products offered by Shen, JR, New Standard and a few others. Hey, let's not forget that a Kay Bass in decent condition with the Neck moved out will be a good buy as well, ok?:D

One thing that used to bother me personally over on TB was all this excitement and bragging about these great plywood and Hybrid Basses with Upton included in the mix. I rarely got a fraction of the excitement introducing a Dodd, Gilkes, Prescott or other great REAL handmade classics than what we saw when the new Home Depot Hybrid hit the store shelves.

Fair enough. We pretty much agree.

I would like to direct this post at Ken mostly.

I want to preface my remarks by saying that I have no stake in Upton other than I own one. I have the utmost respect for you Ken and your electric basses. Your knowledge of DB is the reason why I come to your forum.

I guess the original purpose of the post was to find out about other peoples opinion of these instruments. No one ever said that these are rarified instruments or that they are better than anything else available. In fact, I am a recent convert to DB as you know. I went out in search of a student instrument to learn on. I didn't want to be one of those jerks-offs that can bearly play and buys a Ken Smith top-of-the-line bass. Or a guy that buys a 200-year-old carved bass and doesn't know where the first position is. Other players would shake their heads and say "how about learn to play first". Fair comment.

Many of us on this forum are musicians and business people too. As an entrepreneur, you know that making a great product is only one part of the equation. Marketing, creating brand awareness, creating demand based on the power of the brand is just as big, if not bigger, part of being successful with bringing a product to market. You seem to be resentful that Gary (Upton) has done such a good job with that part of his business. I think he should be applauded, strictly from a capitalistic point of view... great execution on that part of the program.

As far as TB goes, we are all painfully aware of the shortcomings of that forum and it does not suit my purpose to turn this into a TB bash session. Hey we are on Ken Smith's Forum now, aren't we? Enough said.

None of this really has to do with the quality of the bass of coarse. I guess what I wanna say is that this instrument represents a really good choice for a player that wants a quality instrument at an introductory price. I have come to that opinion only after my bass teacher, Mike Richmond, said "wow, this is a great bass, What did this cost? Jeff, you did well." I guess the point is he validated my choice. Before that, I had no basis on which to judge. Who cares and why is it that important that the bass came from Gliga, Romania? I personally don't care where it came from.
If others think another manufacturer has another valid product at the same price point, discuss that option.

What makes Uptons special? I guess they occupy a place in the bass food chain (not exclusively) where a young or new player can get a playable instument that sounds very good for little money. The special part is that there are only a few other options out there as has been pointed out by the posts on this thread. In the same breath, all the bass builders on that short list would also be considered special by that yard stick.

Any teacher would be pleased to see an Upton, Shen or Wulter or (fill in the other names) in their students hands as opposed to a junk bass that is sold on Ebay for $495.

As far as marketing ability and execution, Upton is special. No other DB builder (assembler, whatever) really has achieved the visibility Upton has (to my knowledge). If you don't care for them on that basis, I'm not sure it has anything to do with the intent of the question I originally posted.

Let me interject by saying this. I think you're responding to a lot of what Ken was saying in reply to my question asking if an Upton would be a reasonable upgrade to my Czech factory bass.

s far as marketing ability and execution, Upton is special?
 

Jeff, referring to the end of your Post let me say a few things here.

1) Where would Upton be if there was no TalkBass?

2) Did you know he made a deal for the upper banner on TB and EVERY DB Forum of TB and TB will not even discuss sharing it?

3) Did you know he also bought for 2 or more years all the extra bandwidth on the Upper Side Banner on Every DB Forum as well and TB would Not sell anyone else anymore ad space because Upton made a deal that no one else can advertise there? BTW, This year, Upton is no longer paying for that space but too many people are bitter about the TB/Upton monopoly and will not advertise there anymore.

4) Did you know I tried to buy Banner Space on TB for my Bows and was refused because Upton owned ALL the bandwidth?

5) Did you know that Mods carefully watched what I or others in the Business said about Upton and warned, edited or deleted Posts that looked unfavorable to Upton or even closed Threads that got heated?

6) Did you know that TB on Uptons behalf tried to control a specific image of them in order to secure their advertising monies from Upton?

7) Did you know that my leaving TB was a direct result from a Mod deleting my Post questioning a 'Shill' (planted endorsee) posting about their stripped down overpriced Chinese Bows?

8) Did you know that both Upton and myself buys Bows from the same shop but with the exception of my design and we/KSB only takes the highest grade sticks NOT stripped down?

9) Did you know Upton posted on threads about my Bows on TB to get attention drawn to their own products?

I have nothing personal against Upton Products at all, period.

This Forum exists mainly because TB made me sick from their actions and I still have a lot of friends and customers that want to Talk real Bass so here we are, no Bull, just Bass.... Commercial Free as well!

Touche Ken! And you know a lot about the bass and always willing to share some great tidbits and anticdotes.

One other thing, it's a fine line between preditory and crafty business practice. Many applaud Bill Gates as the businessman of the century. Certainly, you can't argue with what he has accomplished. His competitors call him ruthless and preditory. Is all fair in love & in war (business too)? Also, in a free market, doesn't the "Darwinesk nature" of natural selection make those that are best adapted to competing in business the ones that survive? I'm not defending Upton. I am simply making the point that the challenge is to be the best at marketing (provided you have a good product).

The problem is the marketing is superior to the product. And it's gotten to the point at TBDB where a person can't ask about or give an opinion about a bass with out Upton getting defensive. There have been threads in the basses section over there where the Upton people didn't even answer specific questions asked by an original poster. When I challenged this it turned into a big flame war. The days of getting good advice about purchasing an instrument at TBDB are over, unless you are ONLY interested in an Upton bass.

Yes,
Gary Upton made a sweet deal over on TB and got his name plastered all over there. As a businessman trying to sell his product he has done a tremendous job. If the network airing the Super Bowl made an exclusive deal to air ads only by Ford and froze GM out, we'd be applauding Ford for making such a deal.
I certainly wouldn't fault the network. However, an internet forum such as TB has an obligation to ensure to its members that it is completely fair to all concerned so that there is a free exchange of ideas and information.
I would think the beef really is with TB in not keeping the Forum open and free. Yes, they show favoritism, although NS and Wan Bernadel basses have ad space. A certain distinction here is that the other advertisers don't openly discuss their products on the forum.

All this said, this discussion is really about how a particular dealer conducts their business. FWIW, they have always treated me fairly and I have a nice bass. That's what it all comes down to. Everything else, to me, is secondary.

Let's keep this place open and free where we can all agree to disagree. Time for a beer.:D

Like my dad always says "it's 5:00 somewhere!" :p

I feel you, personally the Upton basses aren't what I need at this point. It's pretty wild though I live minutes away from David Gage, Paul Basie, Ideal Music, and I can spit and find a good bass for sale on the block I live on, but the Upton is so aggressive in getting their name out I almost forget my options. At this stage in the game Upton is not an option for me.