Those are some good ideas and guidelines for the bridge arch. The strings are at 1" on centers now currently, so there is a little room to open them a bit. I was looking at Jeff's 3/4 bass and comparing it to the outline of mine and while the two are similar, there are noticeable differences in both the upper and lower bout shape. I was thinking mine was just a slightly larger version of the 3/4, but these are different shapes in the subtleties.

If I'm correct, comparing mine to your five string, yours has a larger lower bout but narrower upper bout and waist. Otherwise I think they are fairly similar in size. It even looks like you might have the same bridge. I'll try to get a measure on the bridge radius so we can compare.

Same Bridge?
 

My Bridge measures 167mm across the feet while my upper F-hole Eyes are 162mm. I think I mentioned all my Bridge arch and spacing specs earlier. The Top is highly arched and extremely strong. If you look at all the measurements of my Bass, maybe you will be able to estimate its cubic inch air space in comparison to your Bass IF you have any interest in doing that. All I know is that the sucker is HUGE..lol

My bridge feet are right at 168 mm on the outsides. My f's are closer than that. I would guess the two basses are extremely close in cavity size. Just comparing the specs on yours to these.

Upper bout 21", C bout 15.75", lower 27.5", belly from saddle to overstand 45", rib depth 8 3/8" tapers to 7 1/8" after bend in upper bout. As best I can determine, the cavity resonance seems to be "C". The only dimension with much difference is the string length. I think that the 7/8 Christopher I tried out was very close to this size as well.

Size...
 

Yes David, very similar indeed. With my Back 28-29" wide at the bottom it only fits the TKL 4/4 Bag. I doesn't even fit the Bobelock 7/8ths unless I stretch it over the Ribs but the Case will fall apart if continue doing that.

One thing we did not measure is how 'long' each Bout actually is and not just how wide and deep. Our Basses being similar sized do not have a similar string length. Why do you think that is?

A fitting name for a fine bass_long tall "Ivanna"
 

5er played..
 

Last night after not using it since about December of 2005, I played my 5er in concert. I only had a couple of written notes (D) that were below E so I added a few here and there just to get some use out of it. We were playing in a huge Park with all the strings and woodwinds on the grass so I doubt anyone heard much of my low notes if any Bass directly at all. It was just two of us in the section for this last Pops concert series of 3 venues so some low note improv was not much of an issue.

I did on occasion have to 'fish around' to make sure I was on the right string and the A was in the center and a bit confusing. The G was fine and the E position not bad. It was mostly the A and also the D when moving from the lower strings that were slightly confusing. Still, it was nice to have a concert where I could test the waters for the Fall season with putting the 5er back in my personal inventory.

Anyone else have any confessions to make concerning fumbling with that extra string? Paul? Dave? ... Don't be shy now. I promise not to tell anyone if you so desire..lol:p

Bout height / proportion is definitely a part of it. I don't know if this is why. Why is such a complex question when so many things interact, but obviously string length is not one of those things that just exists independently. I suppose in design one could start with string length and then make some decisions around that or go the other way. It's hard to determine whether one isolated parameter is the cause or the effect. My guess is that looking backward at the two instruments that have very similar overall table length, the string length has to match up with the bridge position longitudinally and the heel point has to match the D neck. So once those are located and the projection angle is set, the string length is also. Isn't the bridge position usually at the crest of the arch of the table? So all of these things must be balanced. On the table of my bass there is 23 inches between the bridge and neck overstand and 21 inches below the bridge to the saddle. If the bridge position were up a bit, and the heel point still a D neck, then the string length would drop as well. So your bridge is probably closer to the center longitudinally than mine is. I think the relationship could be mathematically described. If one has the length from the bridge top to the D at the neck heel, then the mensur will be 1.5 x that distance.

There was a 4/4 5 string Romanian bass that I looked at the specifications of when I was shopping for a 5-string that had dimensions and mensur very close to my Kremona. It seems to be a common European shop design.

I'll make an admission about the 4-string / 5-string yin yang. The DB was my first 5 string. After playing a 4 string for two years I wanted to try the 5-er orchestra sized DB just to see what those were about dimension wise and in configuration. I figured switching sooner was better. I had played a few 5 string EBG's, but these never really fascinated me that much although I did like the idea. I used to tune my P down to C on the E string and so I had my own way to get low notes, but a 5 string EBG has more to offer than just notes below E. So here I was in my jazz and folk groups with 5 strings on the DB. And I was rewriting all of my parts now based on the new notes that were available as well as new positions. And inevitably this began affecting my playing on the 4-string EBG, because now I am "thinking" in a different mode. So in improv sequences I hit the wrong string more than once! Eventually switching back and forth from 4 string EBG to 5 string DB was just too frustrating. So I upgraded my EBG to two matched 5 stringers, one fretted and one fretless. Now my musical bass line thinking is the same whatever I'm playing. And I want one of those 7 string classical guitars, too. Just kidding, but everything needs a low B now.

In the end it would be best for me to reach the point where a bass is just a bass. But I'm just not there yet. So for now a bass is a 5-string bass. There was a point in my photographic career when a camera became a box with apertures and shutter speeds, nothing more. At that point my eye superseded the equipment at a fundamental level. The equipment became a proxy for the eye. Any camera would work. When basses become "boxes with low pitched strings" and my ear writes the same line regardless of which box, then I will understand bass lines as fundamentally as I do photographs. After a few more years on the 5 stringers I might start switching back to 4 or something else. I don't think in any case that I am headed for more than 6. For me the 5 string is showing me a lot of relationships that exist only in a couple of instances on a 4 string instrument. So in a way, it will inevitably change my approach to 4 string playing as well.

I was a little frustrated with the poor color rendition of the photos. My bass actually appears much darker and not nearly so red as in the photo, more like in the photo of yours. I just got this digital camera and sometimes the color is very surprising, even after tweaking the white balance. The pine floor of the room is similarly overly red, so I am thinking for this camera with these lights, finished wood tends toward red.

Film with outdoor lighting I'm thinking would probably give truer color. Still the photo shows the outline and design nicely. I saw one of the 3/4 ones like yours before I ordered mine. It was a 2002 model. It's a very pleasing and plain modern gamba similar to German shop basses.

5 & 6 string Basses:
Get a load of this 6 string 1650 "Violone" from Venice Click below: http://home.earthlink.net/~prescottv...ambaVenice.jpg
And here's my 1820 Prescott Busetto with 5 string conversion, (new 5 str. neck, special support of thin Prescott belly, string angle lessened over bridge, etc. Click below:
At an angle: http://home.earthlink.net/~prescottv...t%20Angled.jpg
Full front view: http://home.earthlink.net/~prescottv...tt%20FRONT.jpg
Formerly as 4 strings on a 3 string neck, 2002:
http://home.earthlink.net/~prescottv...rNeckBeach.jpg

Violone..
 

Don, thanks for posting that Violone. I remember seeing that on line a few years ago but couldn't find it. My Mystery Bass is huge and internally built like a Violone or Gamba and this large Bass proves that they did make them bigger than the regular Viola d'Gamba/cello size.

http://home.earthlink.net/~prescottv...ambaVenice.jpghttp://www.kensmithbasses.com/double...s/100_0084.jpg

The signs of Viol making in this Bass include old scars from thin rail type cross braces instead of crossbars, a small tab of wood near the current neck block left from a blockless type neck set and the soft lower corners like those of the old English and French Viol d'Gambas. Internally it curves around almost like a cornerless design. Also, the Bass with its current Neck as I got it measures about 6'5" from the Lower lip of the wood by the endpin to the tip of the Scroll which is a later added shorter 3-string Scroll now modified for 4-strings. This picture you posted Don gives me some clue as to what my 'biggie' might have been born as.

Don, I see that the link is from your website. What was the original source of this pic? Can you post that link so we can see maybe a few others or some more info on who is pictured playing it? The Bass in the back right of the photo in the corner doesn't look too small either!

Comparing some measurements, my Bass is a similar size to my former Prescott which was a slightly cut down 4/4 Bass, similar vintage to your Prescott.

Violone source...
 

Here is a link to what looks like that exact same Violone but the lady is not seen on the page. Link 1
Here's a few other Violone links from that page;
Link 2 Link 3 Link 4

http://www.mdw.ac.at/I105/orpheon/Fo...rle-holesm.jpg

I remember very well trying out a bass with f-holes just like this one time when Robertsons was around. It was an awesome bass and it looked so cool. They were willing to let me hang onto it and work out a deal with them but I declined. I wasn't (and am still not) in a position financially to own and maintain pedigree doublebass instruments.


Maybe when I am older and/or retired :)

Nick Lloyd made a beautiful bass with these same FF holes.

I remember that name. I always liked reading his stuff. It was very practical and common-sense to me.

Here's a nice page on a violone site.

News Flash..
 

I have just sold my 5-string and therefore am officially retired from trying to play the 5er and working hard on using a Fingered/Chromatic C-Ext to go down. ;)

I just couldn't get the low B to work nor could I find the right string all the time. That was partly due to lack of practice. When the buyer came to test the Bass, we switched it to high C to low E tuning. I came with a Spiro/Red C-string and I had a usable set of Reds on my French Bass so one by one while testing we changed all the strings. Finally that Bass sounded good with a full set of Reds! It was deep, dark, sweet, colorful, loud and bowable. I would have never tried that set on that Bass (or any other Bass of mine) as they usually sound too nasal for me. In front of the Bass they were just slightly edgy but from 10 feet or an office away thru the wall, the Bass sounded great and in the hands of a great European player now living in USA.

So, for now, me and the 5-string is just a shady memory..:o

Ken, when you ventured into the five my thoughts were that "this guy is going to give anything a serious try, even if he has been on a four string for most of his life." Kudos to you for giving it shot, Ken, and for offering your insights on the comparative disadvantages or advantages as well as the difficulty in switching.

I'm not having the easiest time myself and I realized right away that if I was going to make steady progress, I needed to have 5 on the EBG as well because it helped me think in terms of note location and all of that. Switching back and forth for a few months, I was often hitting the wrong string. I still do now and then. I was only two years into the DB when I made the change. 2 years later, it still is not easy. Hopefully I'll get there, but I refrain from encouraging experienced players to switch at this point.

not having the easiest time...
 

Not having the easiest time for me as you stated also has to do with the fact that I have some other great 4-string Basses that I would rather play musically. If the 5er was my Gilkes or one of the other classics I might have used it all the time but converting one of those for trial sakes is out of the question.

My conclusion has to do with many factors but mainly that I don't go down for than many notes on the B-string and the 98% or more of the time the B is either in my way or confusing me. For most things I can manage on the Extension and manage is the key because that is about the best most people can do with it on certain parts. I have asked players in both the Philly orch and the NY Phil to get some insight as to how they 'manage' and it seems that neither of the two orchestras have a 5er between them or at least that I have seen.

I am from NY and live near Philly now. If it's good enough for them, it's good enough for me! My teacher Lew Norton never used an Ext. as far as I know and he spent most of his professional career in the NY Phil playing just a 4-string.

It was fun, plenty fun the times I had with the 5er. Most of all just having it to play and to be different in the section. So is a 3-legged Cat in the litter..:p

I been 5ing it for so long, I have trouble playing a 4 stringer.:confused:

been 5ing?
 

Paul, Please come by and bring your bow. Play in one of the orchestras for one night and then tell me it's not a problem!:confused:

If it was jazz pizz, I don't think it would have been so hard but with the bow, yikes!:eek:

What kind of man are you? :rolleyes:

what what?
 

Paul, please keep the questions simple..:confused:

Low b is now gone
 

Hi 'C'..
 

Well Jeff, I did play it for a bit but mostly for the buyer to listen to it from various distances to judge its tone.

I personally would not play it with a high C. By the way, all the Strings put on were older used Spiro Reds and not new strings. My point on the strings was that the Bass sounded great with Spiros and more open than I had ever heard it. Also, the tension was actually loosed than it was with either 2/3 Flex/Perm, 4/1 Flex/Perm and maybe even all 5 Flatchromes. The Reds really sounded good on the Bass and the Spiro 'edge' was gone 10 feet away from the Bass, much to my surprise.

For Jazz, that Bass sounded great with the Reds. For me now that I have been shedding some rapid Extension passages I have decided to stick with a 4/ext or just 4 as needed for orchestra playing. On the other hand, I did a Jazz duo last week in Philly with a great Pianist and used my Bisiach with Ext. The Bisiach has a Thomastic Superflexible/Ropecore Ext E/C string on it and sounds huge for Pizz or bowing but doesn't Bow as well as Flexocor. It's sound makes up for the extra effort with the Bow but I still might go back to Flex on that E/C as it's all I had handy for Jeff when he finished up the Ext job.

The High 'C; to me is more of a musical thing than a string choice. If I were doing only Jazz and playing a 5er (that Bass!), I might use Reds and a low B, just like Uncle Pauly does..:D

Well, I'm afraid I've become a 5-er guy for life. I'll just have to put up with the infrequent unintended double stops. I'd really miss the low string and the way it plays just like all the others. Theres just nothing like dropping down that extra octave to C or D or B or even the Eb in the jazz ensembles. I don't know if I would ever go to more than 5, but 5 seems more and more comfortable now that I'm using them on all the basses. I do think it would be quite confusing trying to switch back and forth unless I just spent all day everyday switching basses. Back to practice .....

5er vs Ext.. Brand'
 

I hear you loud and clear about the double stops. That was a major problem for me and sometimes just a single stop but missing by a string..:eek:

Last night I took out one of my Excerpt Books and tried one of the Brandenbergs' using a 4-str w/Ext. It was much easier playing it with only 4 strings and the open 'C' but when I had to quickly hit a D or Eb and jump into a run a string or two up it wasn't so easy. Hitting a shorter sounding quarter note or eighth is not so bad jumping back on the extension but missing the string entirely and playing a completely wrong note is much worse I think.

Now I am working on the Storm parts with a CD to play it up to speed. Again, when not playing below the E, I don't have that 'B' pushing the other strings further away from me of have confusion of which string I'm on or the occasional Dbl Stop mistake.

Also, I've done a few Jazz gigs and playing some Lows on the Extension when wanted is much easier then playing them when written!

You always make it sound like jazz players don't have to deal with as many probllems as classical players and I think your right.

as many?
 

Well Uncle Pauly, I too am a Jazz player as well BUT my whole purpose of getting or rather trying the 5er was for playing Classical Orchestra Music.

I don't know if Classical players have more problems with a 5er like mentioned above but being that we play mainly with the Bow and 100% what's written on the page, I would venture as far as saying that Classical players have different problems..;)

As a jazz player and mostly classical listener, I think the classical players have a huge challenge in making the music their own. With jazz it kind of starts as "your own" in the ideal world.

I will admit experiencing a certain sense of satisfaction after having come back from an annual festival that features diverse music and players and out of 4 DB players there, I had the only large 5-string. No-one had extensions. We were covering Chitlins Con Carne and bouncing down to that low C after a couple of choruses in the higher octave and hearing it reverberate across the stage and out to the audience;- no matter what the other players could do, that moment belonged to me. I think it might have scored lowest note played at that festival, unless some keyboard went a step lower. And I played all of Foot Prints arco, again using the lower G on the B string as the pickup to the head instead of the higher G. That's a dark foot print.

Paul, it was you and that Bohmann that did this to me. And I thank you!
:o

You're most welcome....due to finances, i'm selling the Bohmman. Any takers, Kenny- Boy?

Hummmm???
 

Just when I thought 'me and 5-strings' were 'Oil and Water'.. Ok, ok.. Make me an offer I can't refuse!;)

Just an observation
 

I have the good fortune to be playing some jazz bass with the Grant Park Symphony here in Chicago tonight and Friday. We are playing Rodrigo's Concierto (Sketches of Spain) Adagio and some Brazilian music, including a Gil Evans arrangement of Corcovado. The concert features the singer Luciana Souza.

I don't have many opportunities to play in an orchestral setting and have been closely checking out the bass section. On the extension front, here's the tally:
3 mechanicals, two fingered (one without extra stops) 1 bass extensionless, and one 5 string Poelmann. I know this has been discussed, but watching the players reaching up on those extensions, I can't help but think the 5 string bass just makes more sense. I'm going to try and talk with Andy Anderson, who plays the 5 stringer, to find out what brought him to it, as extensions seem to be the norm in the states.

humm..
 

Well, here's my take on it. If playing some moving lines and octaves, the 5er works best. If you have your speed and practice it, the capo extension can do quite a bit. If just a note here and there on the bottom, I think the 5th string is in the way for the majority of the time you don't need it. Also, the entire time you are playing on a bigger and wider neck even when playing the normal 4-strings.

I think that every 5-string player says they prefer it to the extension. Every capo extension player says the same about their choice as well.

For me, an extension is a great way to bring a four-stringer down low, without converting it to a fiver. I know a few people who actually say that their bass has sounded better with the E/C than it did as a regular four-string. I think 'more open' was what they said. While on the other hand, a fifth string might choke the bass, plus it gets über difficult to set it up properly, so as to avoid playing on three strings at the same time without having to reach a mile for the G, and it also has to be able to carry those low notes. Big enough, basically... which in itself might restrict playability. A fiver that really works is dang hard to find and usually costs a lot. But yes, there are times when a fiver is simply priceless. Most of the really great ones are owned by the wealthier orchestras. A newer fiver is of course affordable, but if you already have eight Panormo-class basses in the section, people just won't ever get really satisfied with the sound that it produces. In which case, of course, it's basically a luxury problem.

I spoke with Andy last night and to quote him, the 5 string seemed "a more elegant solution" than the extension. I played his bass and it is very easy to get around on. I assumed all 5 stringers would have massive feeling necks and fingerboards but this isn't the case with his at all. The spacing at the nut felt almost BG like. He told me he worked very hard to get the setup just right for him. An interesting thing he mentioned is the approach German players use with fingerboards relatively flat. To compensate, they lighten up so as not to play adjacent strings and use a very fast bow arm to get the volume they need.

my latest..
 

Even though I don't really play a 5er, I like having one around. Here's a not so old one I got a few months back. It's a Hofner from 1977 but looks new.

http://www.kensmithbasses.com/double...ages/front.jpghttp://www.kensmithbasses.com/double...mages/back.jpg

It has Permanents on 4 strings and the Low B a very old 'Thomastic Precision' solid core string. Maybe it needs different strings, I can't tell because it's not what I normally play.

Low 'B' to match Perm's..
 

I posted this in Orchestra strings a few days ago but didn't get any replies. Now I see that I mentioned this a year ago here on this thread. Now that the bass is back and fully set-up I would like to hear a few opinions concerning the 'B' String.

I started a thread on 'Which 'B'?' some time ago but that was for a different bass which is long gone now.

I just got my *Hofner 5er (*old pics) back from Mike Magee in Pittsburgh and she's beautiful, the Bass, NOT Mike.. lol

It needed a full set-up so I had the Board pulled and replaced, a CF Rod put in the neck to stiffen it, the neck re-carved with the fake flame removed (shows some nice figure now), new bridge with adjusters and new Permanent strings from G to E.

We discussed the Strings and went with Permanents for the G-E but he thinks that the original 'B' a Thomastik 'Precision' solid core is a great sounding string. The previous 4/4 5er I sold ended up with that 'B' as well but a brand new string. The Strings on this bass were the originals from 1977. Although the bass has barely been played, they had been at or near tension for over 30 years now.

So, should I put a Permanent 'B' on there to match or what? The Permanents on there now sound great and Bow nice and smooth.

Also, this bass being a 3/4 Wilfer/Juzek style model (if not an actual Wilfer re-labeled) might be best utilized as a high 'C' 5er rather than an Orchestra 5er with Low 'B' but only time will tell. The bass IS fairly loud so I need to take it out to a rehearsal or two and see what she can do.

With some of the 5s I have had and tried I was able to either move the strings over into wider slots and move the 'B' off to the side to use it as a 4-stringer or just take off the 'B' from the bridge and tighten it back with some foam so it doesn't vibrate and use as a 4 as well. This bass however now has a really wide board and full 27mm spacing each string, same as the average orchestra 4, more or less.

So, keeping it set-up for Orchestra, would a Perm B be the best choice?

What's the neck angle and bridge height like to get spacing that wide?

Resurrection Thread
 

Having been in string work most of my life, I think that there are good acoustic and performance reasons why the four-string models prevailed in the violin/viola/cello world. That said, there are compelling reasons for the five-string bass in the modern orchestra. While fivers might be somewhat scarce here in the USA, a quick look at a recent photograph of the bass section of the Berlin Philharmonic will show that they are still a factor and that they still have advantages over the four-stringer with a C extension.

I just finished a five-stringer for Paul Unger of the Fort Worth Symphony, and it was a very rewarding collaboration in rethinking what orchestral bass players might need for the 21st century. If there's any interest in kicking this can down the road a bit longer, count me in. At the rate posts have occurred in this thread, we should all have time to fully contemplate our comments. As Mae West famously said, "Anything worth doing is worth doing slowly." The bass maker's lament . . . :D

so..
 

Tom and Robert who both just posted, can you help me with my question above?

"So, keeping it set-up for Orchestra, would a Perm B be the best choice?"