The 5-String Double Bass
 

Hi guys, I am starting this to strike up some discussions about the Low B 5er in place of using a C-Ext. I did discuss this here and there as well as making quite a few Threads on TB. Now that we are here and I have gone thru every type of 'Low' including a 5er, it's time I get the ball rolling once again. To re-cap a few old posts I will quote them below to get the fire lit..

I am bringing the 5er back home for the summer to shed on Beethoven's 6th Storm section. I'll give the 5er another try out of necessity.
Now I have to re-think this 'one-Bass-does-all' thing.. yikes..:confused:

Bach's Brandenburgs and really all of the Beethoven Symphonies have long been among my favorites. If I can find a good way to convert my Dad's old Deutschte-Grammophon recordings to digital, I'll be able to enjoy them more often.

But about the Brandenburgs and the low notes;-

Do you think Bach's original composition referenced notes this low or is this something that is more likely a modern interpretation? There have been some different ideas about whether there were Baroque era instruments that actually could play those low notes. G violones certainly existed (similar to the Pollmann). Some researchers feel that there was an instrument that went even lower, to the D that we now have only with instruments with the C extension or BB string and there are a few drawings of really large instruments but almost nothing that still exists qualifies as a genuine Baroque instrument that might have this range.

I was just wondering. I'm a real low note freak myself so I like everything with the lower range.

Say fiver and here I am. Being a jazz player and not using the bow much, I don't have to expose myself to the horrors of having to bow the E with another string in the way ( the B ) That could get a bit edgy.
Did I tell you Kenny, that I saw Edgar Myer playing a fiver ( big! ) on TV with a small orchestra? He seemed very comfortable.
David, i've never heard of the low D you speak of.

set-up..
 

I think Set-up is a major factor in Bowing a 5-string Bass. It needs the right Bridge Arch and spacing between strings as well as a Sting that works best on that particular Bass.

Now that I am committed to doing the 5er thing again I will have to find what strings work best for the Bass I have. The 3 lower Permanents and 2 upper Flexocor were not as good as 4 Flexs and a Perm 'B'. The B is way too heavy for that set on my Bass and all the strings seem tight even though Arnold adjusted the Post yesterday. I think a slightly lighter tensioned set might work better for me.

Sure you know that D, Paul, it's on the B string at the top of 1/2 position or 3 half steps up from the nut. I know I referenced it kind of oddly referring to the extension, but it would be the second capo past the nut.

I'm thinking the Brandenburgs are going to work better on a 5 string because that has to be accurate and fast, and I know what Ken is talking about with string access. I found this rare portrait of Bach and I think he did it on a different instrument than the one currently used in the Orchestra:

I've tried the little bit of one of the Brandenburgs that I can remember by ear and down low, it's a work-out and it is tough to dig in on the E without skittering on the B or A also. I did put more space between the strings than the bass came with, but if I had it to do over again, I think there is a better spacing strategy than the one I used. I put them on one inch centers, but I should have put one inch between them. This is more difficult to work out at the bridge, but it helps with access to the E. String height is another part of the issue. The B has to be higher than the other strings, so you actually lose a little of the fingerboard arch at the bridge. So having some extra string space would help with that, but I'm thinking a slightly assymetric arch on the fingerboard with a tighter radius on the B side of the board might help also. Some 5-ers have a tighter radius than others, but that is a trade-off also, because you don't want the B string to contribute less tension to the bridge. If it is radiused too tight, the string might not be very strong. I'm thinking the optimum 5 string set up is much harder to get to than the optimum 4 string. Spacing, height and arch all have to be spot on. That said, I think I got mine playing pretty well all things considered. It looks real similar to the set-up on Anselm's bass. The arch looks similar as well. His doesn't seem to have a real tight radius. I'll get a photo of my bridge and post it. It's no work of art, but it works.

The 'B' String...
 

For me, the Jury is still out on the Tension of this Low 'B' String. One BIG disadvantage most of us have is that in my case mainly, I have played 100s of 4 string Basses in my 40 or so years BUT have only played about 5 (that I can recall) 5-String Basses. I can actually name them but I may have touched one or two more in that time.

With so little experience on playing the 5-String, choosing the right strings for Bowing that Bass for what you need to play is much harder to do than on a 4-string that for me, I am way way more familiar with.

My 5er feels a little tight right now even after a Soundpost adjustment that did help but not enough. Maybe I have the wrong Strings on it? The G and D are tuned at 2 octaves and a third and less on the Lower strings with the Pecanic TP. Maybe I need to let the Cable up a bit till the G and D are tuned to a 4th. These are some of the mysteries of setting up the occasional 5er as compared to the standard 4-string.

In the BG field, I am one of the top people in the business of Multi-strings but on the DB 5, I am just getting started in comparison.

Not to get off topic but one of your Black Tiger 5-ers had one of the best set-ups I have ever played. Amazing frets. I don't think Bach had a choice of one of those or certainly he would have used that instead.

Seriously, I have seen and played only three 5-string double basses. One of the biggest hurdles to playing one is finding one in the first place. In the USA, there aren't too many choices. The first one I saw, I was just too new to DB to have a clue about the bowing part of it. It was 3/4 size, same maker as my current instrument. The second one was a Christopher hybrid 7/8 size that had a very full sound and good string access. I think the string length on that one was something 42ish. If I remember, the BB was a bit sloppy or loose feeling compared to mine. It had a bit more arch in the FB than my current 5-string which sounds very similar to the Christopher, but the B is tighter, really good at stopped C and D. On the Christopher the E was easier to dig in on, so there is this trade off with the arching.

I was looking very closely at the arch of my fingerboard today and there is a slightly different radius on the bass side of the FB. It could just be a variation in the board that really was not dressed too much from the shop, or it could have been deliberate on the part of the maker. In any case, that is probably helping it out a bit in terms of string height and access.

So far I have only used the Helicore Orchs that came on mine. Experimenting with different B strings can get expensive. The current string works OK but I know something better is probably out there. I am noticing some corrosion on the B and E strings after 2 years so maybe it is time to try something new.

5s and Bs...
 

In the late 70s when I used to buy, fix and sell Basses in my spare time as my hobby I ran across a modern German 5 in a NY Pawn Shop which I bought on the spot with my credit card. I took it home and after fixing a Top crack (top off) and re-varnishing the Top only with a nice Oil Varnish I mixed I converted the Bass back to a 4-string. I planed down the overhang on the fingerboard, took off the 3/2 plate gears, plugged and re-drilled for 2/2 plates, re-cut the bridge top and bingo, I had a nice 4-string which sold soon after it was done. This was a Juzek/Wilferish type Bass very similar to the Hofner 5 I am selling at the moment.

In my 20 years of playing, other than in Books or on TV (Boston Symphony) I had never seen anyone play a 5-string DB!

Several years ago I saw the 2nd one which was a Bob G/Bulgarian Bass. Must have been the older models with the shiny Lacquer finish and low neck stand model. I played only a few notes on it and that was it.

The 3rd was a Pollmann belonging to the former Principal of the Met. He had the B tuned to a C. For most things this made sense but for octaves like in the Brandenbergs, it needed to be in 4ths down to B for the fingering. This is the Bass I borrowed to see if the 5 was for me at all. I decided I did need one but opted to convert one of my extra Basses instead of buying that one. My Morelli was on the bench at Arnolds and the Peg Box was an inch shorter than the Pollmann so we scrapped the conversion on that Bass and put a fingered Extension on it instead. I used that Bass for a few concerts and then sold the Bass. The new owner played mainly Jazz and took off the Extension.

The 4th one was my current Hungarian Bass that WAS a conversion from a 4-string. This had a slightly longer Peg Box plus room at the top to Chisel away some more wood to fit the new set of 5 Tuners. This is a large bodied Bass with a longer lower bout and FFs placed higher on the Body allowing for a 41 1/4" String Length while the Belly Length is over 45". A normal 3/4 would be closer to 43" body length so this modified 7/8ths has some extra 'body' to it which helps out that added 5th string volume wise. Also, the Top has a huge arch making it a strong Top well able to handle a 5th string. Actually, Arnold had mentioned that this Top is so strong, it doesn't even need a Bass Bar. He put one in anyway just in case!

The 5th one that comes to mind in this countdown is the Hofner 5 that I am listing in behalf of Paul Biase Violins, NY. This is a nice Bass for the money and only played it a short time when I took the Pics a few months ago. If I were in the market for one now, I would seriously consider this Bass. It has more normal 3/4 dimensions in Body and String length. For someone needing a 5er, this would be a good buy short of buying an upper end more expensive Bass for regular professional Orchestra use.

For Strings, I can only comment on my Hungarian Bass and the Pollmann which I used in Concert as well. The Pollmann had 4 Flexocors and a Jaegar medium B-string. My Bass had Flex. Tops and Perm. bottoms (A,E,B). Currently I have 4 Flex's and a Perm. 'B'. I am considering trying out a complete set of Flat-ChromeSteels which seems to be lighter tensioned than the Flex's but that is judging it from another 4-string (w/C-Ext) English Bass I played the other day.

Bridge Arching: What I do usually is slide a pencil or ruler between 3 strings laying it flat on the top of the Bridge surface and look at the height off the the line of the middle string which should measure about 1/4". I do this 2x on a 4-string and 3x on the 5 to check bow clearance on all the inner strings.

Here are some pics I took for a Bow listing I had a few years ago using my 5-string. These pics though not intended to show Bridge arch still gives an idea of what I have. Last week I tweaked the arch slightly once again lowering the B (which raises the E-arch) and lowering both the G and D (which raised the A and kept the relation from the D to the G). I will not be a good judge of my work until I get into rehearsal with the Bass playing the Beeth. 6th which is on my stand for the Summer to work on.

http://www.kensmithbasses.com/double...ges/f_grip.jpghttp://www.kensmithbasses.com/double...ges/I_grip.jpghttp://www.kensmithbasses.com/double...ges/g_grip.jpg

Of course I know that D David, I'd just never heard of tuning down to it.
My bad, I read your post wrong.

My Bohmann has the fingerboard layed over the B side of the neck.....to accomodate a thinner neck.

Ken, my RX for your tight-feeling fiver: BelCantos G thru E, B string of your choice.

My bass sounds great with a Thomastik Orchestra B
I'm surprised Kenny hasn't tried the BelCantos....

Bel's?
 

I did think of the Bel's but the main problem is the 'B'. Which 'B' will match which set and be able to Bow it equally response wise?

Tension wise and Bowability I like the Bel's but with that soft 'E', I will need an even softer 'B' or the 'E' will be even mushier I think.

The first one I saw was one of those. Not sure how early it was compared to the one you saw. I think it was built the same year I saw it, 2002. I knew very little at the time, but the fellow who owned it had a good bit of experience, played it in a community orchestra and gave it good reports. Looking at their new web page, the bass appears to have a higher projection than mine even and the nitro is now spirit varnish, purfling similar to the Hofner / Wilfer detail also. And now there are two distinct gamba models.

George Hofer suggested that I put a partial false nut on my bass under the B to raise it to a C. The B string used to behave very oddly when I was trying to tune to the 5th of the E. The partial false nut would not have changed the tension or note location but it would have shifted the harmonics and might have helped because the problem seemed to be resonance related. I thought it had a wolf, but this problem (which was here today and not tomorrow) completely vanished as the bass opened more.
That is a very nice looking bass at that price. Tempted to visit PA.
My clearance is definitely less by a bit than the .25 inch guide. And at the FB, if I hold my bow like in your photo, the clearance is dangerously close. I can play it all the way up into thumb position across all five strings, but more clearance would be better. Does your arching at the finger board match the arching at the bridge closely? How much could I increase the arch at the bridge without changing it at the fingerboard as well?

Correction..
 

Ok, I just measured it rather than only eyeballing it. The clearance at both the Bridge and FB inside each 3-strings is actually only 4mm or so and not 1/4". The 1/4" is my regular clearance on a 4-string or about 5-6mm.

When you play a 5er, you have to keep the Bow steady so as not to bump the neighboring Strings. Also, make sure your 'draw' the string rather than press down with the Bow. Finally, when playing up the neck into thumb position, the Bow should also move down towards the Bridge as you get closer to the end of the FB for a cleaner sound.

So, I am using 4mm clearance with about 1" spacing (25mm +/-) at the end of the FB. The Nut is spaced 7/16-15/32 string to string and the spacing at the end of the FB (high C on the G) is about 23mm (+/-).

I would also like to point out that for about 15 years I played a 7/8ths high shouldered 18th century Italian Bass with about a 23.5mm Bridge Spacing so I am not new to tight spaced Strings or tight Bowing. Having a beautiful Sartory all that time didn't hurt either..lol

Look Familiar? (Duped from Beeth's 6th)
 

Some 5s in Germany from my friend Sven-Henrik Gawron. The first Bass, a Rubner is very similar to Anselm's Bass.

Like Anselm's?; http://www.vektor-bass.de/rubner1957.htm

http://www.vektor-bass.de/zimages/rubner5sfront.jpghttp://www.vektor-bass.de/zimages/rubner5sback.jpghttp://www.vektor-bass.de/zimages/rubner5shead.jpg


and this beauty as well; http://www.vektor-bass.de/bohem_5s.htm

http://www.vektor-bass.de/zimages/bohemian_5s-front.jpghttp://www.vektor-bass.de/zimages/bohemian_5s-back.jpghttp://www.vektor-bass.de/zimages/bohemian_5s-head.jpg

I must get a digital camera. But these come with shutter lag and timing is everything to me. So I'm still digital image challenged as one might say. I promise to have one by this week-end so we can compare bridge set-ups. As far as bowing goes, it is pretty much like you describe because as little clearance as I have there is no other way. Up in thumb land I bow about 2/3 down from the FB to the bridge. On the G, D, and A it is better, but E and B are really tight. I'm getting to know some cool double stops up there though. :D

From what I can tell (mostly from photos) there are two schools of thought on the part of the makers of 5-ers, at least with the arch of the fingerboard. One borders on being violone-ish with a flatter arch and the other one has a really high round arch. Mine is the first kind. That Chris was the 2nd. My Kremona model is now called a Rubner (I suppose after the famed Markneukirchen Josef Rubner) to distinguish it from a new model recently introduced.

A fellow over on TB just posted about an actual 5-string Rubner (don't know if that is Josef or Johannes) he got to check out for few strokes. I told him to come over here. He didn't have photos though. That Bohemian flatback is sweet! :o Is Paul W. around or is he, um, busy? ;)

Im right here.

More than 5
 

This one is a real beauty and I thought since we are obsessing over the devilsome issue of bowing a five string (pizz just seems pretty normal), I thought we should consider the difficulties in getting a good arco set-up on this one.

Pollmann..
 

Looks like a '70s Pollmann but in a 6! The one 5er I borrowed was a big Gamba Busetto with a 41 1/4' String Length and fully decorated with Carvings but without the Rosette in the Top. This Bass must be for either a Jazz player or a soloist. I would love to see someone play that next to me in an Orchestra Rehearsal. The Double Stops will tell me when he's having trouble...lol

More than 6
 

I know this verges on insanity, but a French luthier has made one with 7, and the player does use a bow. His primary work is improvisational jazz. I have one of his older recordings using a 5-string, but this is the instrument he's playing now:

7s...
 

Cool stuff. When they start writing for the 7 string in Orchestra, that's the day I retire for good..lol

time traveling
 

Doubtful that will happen in our lifetimes, so play it to the end of the piece!

But going back to the Bach Brandenburgs: I think there are some with only a continuo score, and I'm guessing that those or even the ones with the DB score might have been scored for G violones with 5 or 6 strings. It's hard to tell because the coninuo was sometimes done on a harpsichord or whatever was available. There is of course still the question of which octave was intended, but I haven't found much on that. And that is not as significant an issue as that those parts were probably scored for an instrument that through crossings could play the octave passages more easily. Apparently violones could be tuned several ways, but all fourths wouldn't be too different from the more standard 3 fourths, a major third, and then two fourths. Just a crazy theory. What is a good source for scores of the Bach pieces? I'd love to give those a look. [EDIT: Never mind, I found them. Public domain. Love the Internet!]

Which violone? Which octave?
 

OK, I finally have satisfied myself on this question, while I'm sure it will remain one of scholarly debate for some. After all, one must write a thesis on something to get a PhD! Malcolm Boyd's book on the Brandenburg concertos suggests that a violone grosso was required, probably one with only 4 (?) strings that had the lowest string tuned to C', but that different instruments were used depending on which Concerto it was. In fact 3 different instruments are referenced. The scores I was able to find online (William Rust) suggest that there were violone grosso, violone, violone de ripieno (that distinction evades me as it seems to be contextual). Certainly these distinctions had some specific meaning in Bach's day. Boyd's book is copyrighted material, but if the link works it takes you to the specific page that talks about this. He also clears up the question of which octave the score refers to. But in the end the part is more important than which instrument we play it on. We don't have 3 to choose from today unless we collect rare and expensive reproductions. In fact what can't be done on either a 5 string or a 4 with C extension can likely be played on a cello.

Planyavsky and Borgir would seem to support that the instruments in use in Germany in Bach's time were indeed tuned in 4ths across all strings like our modern 5 string bass, but were tuned to different notes. An instrument like that 6 string Pöllmann would probably cover all of the Brandernburgs with ease, (except for the pesky unintended double stops). A 5-er would be the next best thing but require more shifting. A C extension? Bach would think that was a curious thing, I think, but it might work in a pinch for one of the Concertos specifying the violone grosso.

I know this is a somewhat cross thread response, but the usefulness of a 5 string instrument is certainly part of this. If I had to choose one and only one Double Bass instrument to play, maintain, and express myself on, it would be a 5 string one tuned in 4ths. But that little Pöllmann violone would be a nice second fiddle. And it appears that tuning in 4ths across all strings might be quite acceptable from a historical perspective of German tradition. A nice little 6 string acoustic bass guitar for some of the Brandenburgs!

Ken does this bass look familiar?
 

Attachment 245

"Several years ago I saw the 2nd one which was a Bob G/Bulgarian Bass. Must have been the older models with the shiny Lacquer finish and low neck stand model. I played only a few notes on it and that was it"

huh?
 

That's 'THAT' Bass? Sry, don't remember it much at all. I was packing my Amp up while Don was setting up to sub for me at a rehearsal. I was in and out in 2 minutes..

38
 

ok, i´m the winner: 38 strings!
http://www.bazantar.com/instrument.html

I thought about mentioning that since Mark Deutsch has modified a 5 string DB. It's a really interesting instrument. I've had his CD for over a year. "Fool" is an interesting meditational composition that is conceptually related to the life cycle. Some moments are a bit arresting, perhaps disturbing. I enjoy listening to it in the odd moment it and there is some good double bass playing on there. In the USA, it would probably be classified as "New Age" music. The Bazantar sounds very unusual. It's like a huge viola d'amore. One of the most interesting things on his site is his chart of the harmonic series vs. equal temperament. It's one of the best graphical depictions of pure harmonic relations I've ever seen.

If you haven't heard the whole composition, Anselm, it might be worth a listen, or at least I was quite pleased with the CD.

Wow
 

Anselm, I agree.
You are the winner!

The mighty funf
 

Has anyone ever played a 5 with a high C?
I might restring the mighty funf with a high C in lieu of a low B.
I'll never leave first position again!;)
My slab 5 is currently strung this way and I really like it.

Once upon a time, the Kay bass company made a 5 string model that was strung with a high C. It was after a famous player Greig Stewart "Chubby" Jackson popularized that tuning and it was known as the "Chubby Jackson" model. They are fairly rare, but turn up now and again. It is a possibility to string it that way for sure, but who wants to be stuck in first postition? I'd rather play at the heel any day. Just my preferences, obviously it worked well enough for Chubby the other way.

long tall "Ivanna"
 

OK, so here's what she looks like uncropped:

Rosin?
 

Not a speck of Rosin on the strings or bridge! How do you keep it so clean?

You know that just doesn't happen to me. I've posted about this problem several times. I just never get any rosin anywhere but on the strings. And then it's a powder that just wipes off. I actually wipe it off pretty frequently when I'm practicing. But I'm finding with the black hair I need far less rosin. And it is pretty hot so I'm using the Hard Oak for the first time. It works great with the black hair.

I did scrape the bridge clean with a blade about a week ago, but it really didn't have much rosin on it, just some surface dirt from going in and out of the case. That's the first bridge I carved. Hopefully the last too. I had blisters every where I had skin.

New Bridge?
 

You carved and fit that Bridge? Good job, it looks great. How is the radius on that Bridge? My 4-string Basses average about 1/2" putting a ruler under the outer strings and measuring the distance to the top of the bridge in the center. The 5er I have is 3/4" for 5 strings and the 4-string measurement (without the B) is just under 1/2", slightly shallower.

I had matched the radius of the fingerboard at 72mm, I think or somewhere close to that. I haven't measured the radius of the bridge. I based it on the original bridge which was fine height wise, the spacing was just too close for arco. Ideally, I think a slightly tighter radius would be better on the fingerboard. But before I do that, I could reset the strings just a little wider. G, D, and A are all fine, E is a little tight. Or I could go for one inch between instead of 1 inch on center. I'll try that first with a different spacing on the original bridge. It was a lot lighter maple, but it still sounded good. If I put adjusters in it, I could trim the top and try the different spacing.

Thanks for the compliment on the bridge. The photos are close enough to show the small mistakes. I totally abstained from any sandpaper on that one. I just wanted to see if I could do it. I used two flexcut knives and a little modeling plane. The planer really brought out the rays in the maple. Scraping it to clean it was a tip I got from you somewhere along the way.

Bowing arch..
 

David, regardless of the Fingerboard arch, you need a minimum amount or Bridge arch to Bow. Drawing a line on top of the bridge under the strings, measure the height every other string from that line to the bottom of the string in the middle. Looking with your eye it should be about 1/4" but with a 5-string you may have trouble getting much more than 3/16". A 5er is usually a tighter Bowing Bass from what I have experienced so good Bow technique is needed.

I know that having a good Fingerboard arch to nearly match your bridge is preferred but it would be working backwards to shape the bridge to match the FB. Yes, the string heights may not be optimum but reducing the bridge arch impedes clean bowing.

Since the String heights normally increase from the G to the E (or B) strings, it is best to work on the Bowing arch first if you intend to Bow. Fixing or replacing your fingerboard might be another option as well so as not to take it out on the bridge.

If I decide to reduce the radius of the board (increase the arch) there is quite a bit of thickness to work with. Essentially, I'd just be taking it off at the edges a little to match a radius guide.

It just seems that right now I have more space than I really need with G and D so I could rotate the G & D closer to the edge, bring the A to just slightly favoring the treble side of the board and that will probably do it. It's a tricky set up. I might have 3/16, but probably not on the bass side because the string heights go from 6m to 10mm, so right there I'm losing 4mm already. One thing that makes me hesitant to change anything is that the more I practice and the more the bass opens up, the easier the E string starts, so it is tempting to just leave it be and concetrate on technique. It does work, I just have to be particular with certain notes starting. Bow tension, bow speed, where the bow hits the string between the FB and bridge;- all that seems very important. I probably will not change much on this bass until I have a spare.

set-up..
 

String spacing should be about 1" to 1 1/16" string-to-string, center-to-center and not in between the strings. This way, the E and A will feel closer than the G and D. Also, is the B is slightly further from the E, this will make the Bass play easier with the Bow as a 4-stringer and have the B reachable for those few moments it is actually needed in orchestral works.

Right now, I am practicing regular 4-string music on my 5er just to get use to playing it G-to-E and I don't think about the B-string being there. On my Bass however, everything just feels big including the body of the Bass. Although this neck was big to begin with if I had just left it as a 4-string, the Bass feels easy enough to play when I dabble with a few solo pieces up the G and D. Not a bad trade off I think.