"Cornerless Italian & Spanish Basses"
 

I know we have a similar Thread in 'General Bass Talk' but I thought I would kick off another Thread about this subject as this Guitar/Pear model that we occasionally see is usually of the Italian School.

Recently, a Bass player in 'The NYC Ballet' acquired David Walters' cornerless Bass attr. to Testore. Some have referred to it as a Spanish Bass as they too are known for making this style but did they really make them? Every old cornerless Bass I have seen looks Italian to me regardless of what they call it. Does anyone really know what the origin is of the Cornerless Bass?

The Bass I just acquired has a Brescian type Scroll with a Cornerless shape. The Scroll is on the short side with plugs visible from its 3-string days. The non-ebony Tailpiece also has 3 plugs from when it was a 3-stringer but has since had 4 new holes drilled and an upper lip added at the top of the TP.

This Bass though is loooong.. 44 1/4" string length now but about 44 1/2" if we make a new Bridge with the current Neck and neck-set. For this, we have a vague plan as far as shortening the string length and keeping it playable as well as its thick organ-like sound.

So, please post your Italian Cornerless Bass stories here and post any pics of any Bass you can find anywhere that is both 'Cornerless and Italian' in origin for discussion purposes. I will get my page up in a day or so from this posting and then link it from here.

NOTE: As of this edit on 4/29/07 I just changed the title to include Spanish Basses as many 'attributed' Italian Cornerless Basses may be actually Spanish. Although this style is believed to have originated in Italy, it is the main style that was adapted in Spain as well.

Modello "a Pera"
 

Here's a new made Italian Pear shaped bass by Sergio Scaramelli of Cremona:

http://www.contrabbassi.it/contrabbasso_pera_cassa.htm

BG

Similar..
 

Very similar to my Bass in basic shape and form but mine I believe is quite a bit bigger.

Storioni Bass
 

Ok Guys, heres my Storioni Bass.

http://www.kensmithbasses.com/Double...n_Storioni.jpg

Two older appraisals have it as a Gasparo d'Salo and I do see the Brescian connection in the Scroll but not in the age. The FFs have me puzzled and the Varnish looks fantastic. Still, I can't be 100% certain it's actually Storioni or even another more famous maker. The sound is to die for and the beauty, well that depends on what you like. Stunning is my description. What's yours?

thats a beautiful big guitar
 

Wow that is an impressive looking instrument. Does the guitar shape have any advantages or disadvantages for practical playing comfort? I never have tried one myself. Funny how a long stop doesn't always feel noticeable. Will you take it on a gig in present condition?

I'd go with impressive, too. With a 44 1/4" scale length it must be huge!! How do you carry that beauty with no corners to grab?

It is so easy to play, My Gilkes is 41" string length and is harder to play with its higher shoulders and violin corners. The middle bout on the Storioni is 1 1/8" wider but it's easier to bow without hitting anything.

I took the Bass to an Orchestra rehearsal tonight. We had to add an extra 'p' from pp to ppp because this Bass added to much bottom to the orchestra and I was plucking in 5th position in the pizz sections to play softer. With my other Orchestra I have rehearsal tomorrow (thurs eve.) and Saturday morning with a Sat. eve. concert. Yes, I am playing the Bass now as-is but with a basic set-up that took me about 4 hours last night. I made a new Nut after I took off the extension, re-cut the Bridge top and changed the strings. The E-string is still in the 'A' peg like it was with the Extension but it's a Stark non-ext Flexocor. The other strings are reg Flex, normal gauge, not Starks.

It is not easy to lift or carry. Something I will have to get used to. The sound is well worth any simple troubles like that. Tonight I stood up for over 2 hours straight, no break. Tomorrow I have a 3 hour rehearsal with a break. I will be sitting as there is a stool there for me.

With this Bass I can feel the sound better then I can hear it. I have to lean into the neck to hear my intonation. The Bassist on 3rd stand who knows this Bass and first told me about it a few years ago mentioned how loud it was tonight. The bottom two strings are earth shaking. It's more like a tidal wave pushing from under the ocean than a 20ft surf with everything out front like my Gilkes is which by the way is a cannon over the Storioni but the Storioni is an earthquake to be felt. By the time you hear it, it's too late!:eek:

Yeah, that's the stuff!! That's what I love about THE BASS!

That is one cool big guitar. ;)

Here is the start of mine that I am building. http://www.upnorthstrings.com/cornerlessbass.html

re: Big Guitar
 

I played it last night in my main Orchestra sitting on a stool and I must tell you it was sooooo comfortable. No Corners hitting my legs or Bow. The length was not painful. Just a bit out of tune from time to time but I will improve with that as I already have. The day before, I could not play the Vivo solo in the Pulcinella in tune. Last night I almost nailed it. Just a few notes and shifts I need some extra traveling to reach the intonation point. So in just a few days I have gone from 'total fear' of a bass over 42" :eek: to 'not so bad' on a Bass over 44"!:) Now, put that in your Bow and smoke it!:D

On the sitting thing, I must admit that this Bass just melted in my lap like no other has while sitting. I often alternate between sitting and standing mainly due to some discomfort with the Bass on the stool. Last night I was ready to put this Bass and its feel in my personal 'hall of fame' as far as all time most comfortable goes.

Ken, go and make your cornerless Bass. As much as an eyesore they might be to some makes up the difference in comfort for the player. Yes, carrying it out of the case is not as easy (so I grab it under the FB) but once you play it standing or sitting, all those problems go away in your mind.;)

GUITAR vs. PEAR
 

Beautiful bass, Ken. The varnish is such a beautiful, deep color. Another question from an overly curious student: What is the difference between the two terms 'GUITAR-model' and 'PEAR-model'? One reads of the 'French Pear Model', but I suspect that is in reference to the older Gamba-form basses with sloping shoulders and... well... rather 'healthy' bottoms. But I have also heard of cornerless basses referred to as pear-shaped, and they certainly look like pears. Perhaps it has something to do with the relative sizes of the bouts?

Cheers all,

Charlie

Names..
 

Yes, the Varnish is beautiful and of a very high quality as is the wood under it. On the names, like anything else, these are just nick names to describe a shape. Pear or Guitar describes a cornerless Bass just fine. Pear also refers to a sloped top bout as in the French Basses you mentioned. My Loveri is a Pear shaped Bass but it's not Cornerless! However, it was cut down to this shape in 1937 which was around the time we started seeing those French Pear type Basses in Gamba or Violin shape as long as the shoulders are extremely sloped.

By the way, I played my Cornerless Bass tonight in a concert. The sound is hard to describe but something that I have only dreamed about in the past if that helps at all.

Godfrey Sheppard cornerless
 

Here's a link to a bass patterned after Storioni.

Patterned after?
 

I wonder if he is using the Bass pictured in the Elgar Book. Last I heard, that Bass is NOT a Storioni. Although my Bass was attributed to Storioni when in the possession of the previous owner, it doesn't mean that it is. Attributions can be misleading if the original is not what it claims to be.

In either case, his copy is very similar to mine in style but the dimensions have been modified to have a shorter and more normal strings length.

Ken,

Could you please look inside there when you get a chance and tell me the bracing on the sides. I am at that point in my cornerless construction and need some help.

Bracing?
 

There is no internal Bracing that I can see but the Ribs were repaired in the past and Doubled all around in Spruce. It looks to be one continuous bend all around each Rib. I don't know if this is the best way or not.

Ken, sorry to be a pest but does the doubling spruce run the same way as the sides or across?

I am thinking about doing this type of bracing across the sides in 4 places on each side. What do you think?http://www.contrabbassi.it/contrabba...struments.htm# go down to part under construction and look at the cross braces on the sides.

Ribs..
 

Yes, I see that on Sergio's page but that is not a Guitar shape model. My Loveri Bass with new Ribs from Scalzilli (replaced in 1937 when he cut the Bass) has a center strip in the center Bout from Top to Back. I don't know if that's good or not. My cornerless Bass has the typical inner linings and the Spruce doubling grain runs from top to back in direction 90 degrees (opposite) to the grain of the Ribs.

Here are some photos from Jeff Bollbach's web showing Wood/Linen striping which would be better I think than complete doubling as far as controlling 'voids' in the joints.

http://www.jeffbollbach.com/Scans/Co...nside_diag.jpgIf my Ribs need to be re-done internally, this is what I would feel better about seeing in a restoration.

Stefano Sciascia told me that his old italian cornerless bass has "TELA DI SACCO" (sack-cloth) lining all around, and no visible wooden reinforcement.

sack-cloth lining all around?
 

Sack-cloth lining all around? Oh, ok but it would be nice if we could see some pics of Stefano Sciascia's Bass you refer to. Also, if the Bass is old and has a lot of rib cracks, stripping like in Jeff's pics would make it easier to repair.

One other thing especially in new Basses is that when the Back moves thru the seasons you want either a seam to pop or the Rib to crack. If the Rib construction is too strong like with 20th century German Basses with lining in and outside the Ribs, Only the Top will crack or in the case of a Flatback, maybe the Back as well.

Just ask any repairman in the northeast how many Juzekish Basses (mainly those Germanic style shop Basses with outer linings on them) are flooding the benches this winter with cracks. Arnold, Jeff and a NJ repairman have told me how busy they are with mainly these 'stronger constructed' Basses just 'cracking up' and not from my jokes!:D

One of my newer Basses (20th century) was repaired this past summer and in the beginning of this winter each lower seam popped from the bottom Block up about a foot or less on each side a few weeks apart from each other.:eek: After I re-glued them nice and tight with hide glue, the Top split up a few inches from the outer lower flank from the edge thru the purfling in line with the outer edge of the F-hole but only about 6" long.:confused: I glued that right away to stop it from spreading. A week later the lower seam on the same side popped again and this time some splinters of the Back were still on the Ribs so I know it wasn't my Glue job.:confused::( The wood just needed to move. Then I decided to leave it alone until after the winter and fix it in the spring after the Bass settles from the dry weather.:mad:

So, don't build the Ribs so strong that the Top or Back becomes the first victim.:(

Ken and Matthew thanks. I am leaning towards no cross bracing on the ribs whatsoever, but I must consult the three guru's of bass repair.

Ken you make a good argument for very light or no bracing. How about just 4 "crackstopper" braces from front to back positioned about equally on each side?

ah ah??
 

I yield my time on this Rib question to the two gentleman from NY, Arnold and Jeff whom I would ask if I needed such advice. Ofcourse, It costs me a few lunches here and there but hey, ones gotta eat, right?;)

Okay I will get a few photos together and ask the question, should I start a new thread or put it here or in the other cornerless thread?

Plus I don't mean to exclude anyone else, all responses are helpful.

Put it Here?
 

Well, this thread is Cornerless Italian Basses. If the shoe fits... If not, it should go in the other 'general' cornerless thread.

My grandmother was Italian, does that count?:D

Ken it appears your grandfather was Scottish, so maybe it belongs in the School of Scottish Cornerless Double Bass Bagpipes thread ...

Hi Ken,

I think you do nothing good by putting braces in the ribs of your cornerless bass. The 90 degree attachment will likely lead to rib cracks, just like at the corners of old basses where the rib shrinks and the block stays put. If you are concerned about a small rib crack developing into a "zipper" and traveling around the whole body, you can run some linen strips across the ribs about every 8-10" or so. Put them in with weak hide glue and run them up onto the linings, otherwise you'll cause a new stress point where the linen ends. My experience is that these strips remain a tiny bit flexible, and while they stop small cracks from spreading, they don't cause new ones. I have been using this technique in all my handmade basses. Old Martin guitars have similar strips I've been told.

Linen..
 

So in other words Doctor Schnitzer, 'don't throw out your old sheets'!:D:D

Gee, I wonder if I can sell them on Ebay under 'Luthier Supplies'..:confused:

Check out this Italian copy:

http://netinstruments.com/picture/?p=31377.jpg

BG

Thanks Aarnold.

That bass Brian linked to looks like a german bass with no corners. the arching looks different than any Italian I have seen. The proportions also look like a typical german gamba without corners.

Can you explain to me what looks German about it?

German?
 

The Gears look a bit French to me but the Bass, smells Italian but could be Czech or Hungarian as well if recently made.

Have any of you seen any Spanish Guitar shaped Basses before? I have been told that although this style originated in Italy, the Spanish makers made many Guitar Shaped Basses as well (probably in the 18th and 19th century). One dealer I know thinks that many of the Italian attributed Cornerless Basses are probably Spanish. A few years ago he said my Bass was Spanish way before I owned it and commented it was a great sounding Bass and had a beautiful Varnish as well. Coming from him, I take that as a thumbs up on my most recent purchase which by the way, was my biggest to date.

+1,
I am going to guess that it has something to do with the immediate but very gradual slope of the arch on the top from the edge, but I'm just guessing. Come on, give us the goods you guys. How can you tell?

The only things that I can see are

1. the bass is in germany
2. the colour looks a bit german

I can't smell it, myself.

Yes, this is why I think it is german and not italian design except cornerless of course. There appears to be no recurve in most areas and also what Matthew said about the color. Plus the general shape and proportions.
I am no expert though on identifying bass though.

in Germany?
 

There are many many English, Italian and French Basses for sale currently in German shops from all vintages. Being in Germany during the time of sale has nothing to do with the origin.

The only two countries I know of that have ever produced Guitar shaped basses was either Italy or Spain with Italy being the originator but parts of Italy were under Spanish rule at one time. Many old Spanish makers are of Italian dissent as well and many or then Violin makers there copied mainly Strad, Guadagnini, Guadagaini, Guadagnini and some Gagliano. I looked thru a Spanish Makers book yesterday at Biase's and he pointed out all these great Spanish makers and how Italian looking the fiddles were.

The Germans have copied many many Italian instruments and a few English as well. Most copies are Italian BUT with a Guitar shaped Bass bringing maybe less than the value of a Violin model Bass or even a Gamba, why on earth would the Germans make an Italian Guitar shaped copy?

It does not make sense to me and the re-curve theory or arching's, please.. there are so many styles of making that the first school we blame for oddities or quick work is usually the Italians. Very few Italian Basses have fine work matched to that of their famous Violins. Now sound, thats another story all together.

That may be true but I find it hard to believe that there is not a system for developing "italian arching" regardless of the size of the instrument. I am at a disadvantage as I have seen very few italian basses in person let alone up close enough to measure the arching. I think there were systems and secret information that were used in design of stringed instruments though that is not easy to understand in this day and age. Why would there be such a distinction between classican Italian violins and not be carried over to basses? And what explains why Italians sound good then if it is not design proportions?

Ken I guess you haven't yet figured that MOST of the time, my tongue is firmly stuck in my cheek!

What I meant was, seriously, with no other information than some wideshots taken at wierd angles, of a copy of a bass in a shop in germany, any guess as to that basses origin must surely be just that ... a guess! Especially, since its a copy. We don't even really know how old it is. The tuners and endpin give away a little about its age, but we have virtually no evidence as to its provenance other than what the ad says. Why stop at Spain or italy or Germany? Why not Canadian or British or Swedish? Why couldn't someone in Sweden make a copy of a cornerless Italian bass and sell it in Germany to an American?

Anyway ... the top looks like ply to me :D

Thought provoking indeed. I've seen a couple of different theories on how the arch was developed, but neither source offered much in "proof" and admitted that. There were various mechanical methods using rolling drawing aids. My own theory is that the arch needs to be a sine wave section. Intuitively it seems like a deep recurve would aid in resonance.

Thanks for your explanation on the German personality of the arching.

Probably a compass was used to develop the curves and recurves of these old basses and de gambas. Some old de gamba instruments have no recurve at all while the violin shaped instruments do. And there is a difference in tone but some de gambas were converted to cellos and basses.

I am really just collecting info on plate arching but will keep you posted. there seems to be a method that is emerging in my mind that was common to classical Italian makers. I am no expert and don't have a bunch of old italian basses to study, so take that for what it for what it is worth. I will write more as I get info.