Gut strings Rock!!
 

Have you guys ever wonder why in the hell you can't get that sound that everyone dreams off? And why your fingers are always bleeding or have nasty caluses? Well, the answer is in those 20,000 pounds of torque metal strings that you have been pulling every night!! I had a long talk one day with my bass professor John Scheafer, who was teaching me Classical training at the time. He spoke of the days that metal strings came into effect in NYC and how he was very surprised as to how many bass player didn't like it at first.. The big complaint was the tension on the strings and the thin diameters it came with. He changed about 10 times before the orchestra convinced him into staying with metal. He had to get use to them quick and even though he bowed, it still was hard on the left hand and under the bow to get use too. I play Jazz ,Latin and Classical music, and I have no problems playing guts strings at all.. Many bass players have had the chance to try but give up the next day. It is a maintenance process that has to be learned in order to figure these suckers out. The diameters on the strings make a huge I MEAN HUGE difference in the sound and the way you play them. Diameter=G=2.15 D= 2.65 OR 2.70 A=2.55 E=3.15 If you ever get gut strings, try to get these diameters!!! These are the ones PC,Doug Watkins,John Scheafer,etc....had on their basses... Give it a try and let me know what the out come of this deal ends up to be!!
PS.
IF INTONATION BECOMES AN ISSUE USING GUTS ,PRATICE

What is the unit of measure you are referring to here?

Mm :)-------------

So...

G= .085"
D= .104"
A= .100" (wound I assume)
E= .124" (also wound)

In Gamut Gut strings that would be a Medium + G, a light D, and Medium A and E, more or less. Not a bad combo. Do you think the super light D helps with the choking thing that plain D strings can get? I totally agree with the heavier G string thing, I tried using the lighter ones and they just sort of lay there.

I will say from a fledgling arco guy that Guts are even harder for me to pull a good sound from than Spirocores. There are also times when I'm playing pizz I prefer a longer note. There are also times when I wouldn't mind having a clear note on the E and A strings above A and D respectively.

Opinion?

Good post Carlos
 

But...

Dude I dig the way you play, and the way PC, La Faro, Wilbur and gazillion other great jazzers play. I gave guts a solid go for a while as well, but as weird as it may sound, it wasn't the tone I was looking for after all. Just a thought, but I think at some point I realized that I wanted my own tone, garnered from the inspiration of players from the past, but ultimately looking into the future with the most modern innovations in the instruments technology possible. I look to Rufus for this sort of artistic, forward thinking view. New stuff is out there. Please take no offense, your playing KILLS and I'm not insinuating you have a myopic view of strings, technique, etc. Just adding my .02.



All that being said, I did copy down those string guages for further experimentation, much to the chagrin of my fiancee and pocketbook.

Keep swingin' Brother Carlos, I'll keep listening!

P.S. Tell Printup Kris from Austin says "Hello"

DARN IT DARN IT DARN IT!!!! Carlos and Phil have me curious about guts now. Hey, at least I can claim academic honesty in this discussion. Thanks guys...

gut sets
 

Can't help but agree - it always interested me that players used to the tone of gut strings didn't notice that something missing when they changed to metal in the early days of phasing out gut? Reminds me of the difference when vinyl gave way to CD - tone and sound quality went down the drain for the sake of convenience.
Just a quick question or 2 - did you try different sets of gut to arrive at your current setup? Any set up advice specific for gut? I am using Chorda set and its the strongest tone of all the gut line ups I have tried to date, sounds great arco or pizz IMHO (liked Dlugolecki too but only tried D and G). Do you know if the jazz players and classical players at time of PC etc used similar gut sets? Best and original hybrid strings were gut so I imagine....

They all used gut string however, they had the option for different diameters on the strings which made it easier to play and bow. Chorda strings are great but they are to thick when out of the original package. I have Pirastro make me a special diameter so that it becomes easier for me to play. Damian's strings are the best in reference to its quality and art. Making strings by hand is a special art and it produces a special sound.

Carlito, you play the crap out of the bass! But I hope you are not saying in your opening of this thread that everyone should play gut strings. There are many great bassists whose sound is a steel-string sound, and fantastic. Dave Holland, Peter Washington, Michael Moore, John Clayton, just to name a few. I dig gut strings too, though I don't personally care for the sonority or feel of round-wound A and E strings. Something about the overtones bugs me. I used to play Golden Spiral G and D with steel A and E, and it worked pretty well for me.

Anyway, thanks for classing up this place, and keep playing great music!

Well, not really if we start comparing! However, I do stress the physical side of playing metal strings that happens with students wanting that pure sound. Golden Spiral strings were cool but very hard to bow on, plus the cross over with the bow on the A & E string really hurts. I really would like to stress a point ! Their is no way you can compare the sound of metal and guts!! I'm sorry!! You can't find many players playing gut because it is to hard for them first to get a great sound with the bow plus they don't understand about sound anymore because technology has covered that part with the amp..The sound factor with strings is Organic and very pure in all aspects!!! Example-I never heard of a African Drum head skin being changed to a synthetic skin, the head masters won't allow it. Example- Many can go out and get a Honda or Toyota etc.. and drive it with no problems however, you don't find many driving a Ferrari, Benz or Porche etc.... What I'm trying to say is that the pure sound of the bass is achieved in its original state.. Yes, they are some great bass players that use metal strings and they sound great.. What I'm trying to explain is much deeper to understand... If you want that sound, you have to go that route, sorry!!

Peace!!

I totally agree that if you want the sound of a gut-strung bass there is absolutely no substitute. Nothing, not Velvets, not Evahs, sounds anything like a gut string. But not everybody wants that gut sound. And the sound of steel or synthetic strings is not impure, just different. Hey, car engines were originally built with carburetors; that does not mean a car with fuel injection is wrong. It's progress.

Like I said earlier, I like gut strings. I also like metal and synthetic strings. :)

Peace to you too my friend!

Lol..
 

Spoken like a true Politician..:eek:

Its so nice to know that you agree with me Arnold!! However, the state of progress is not always a form of achievement!! Yes, the car has been a form of progress for us in terms of living and life but when Art is involved their is no replacement for progress. The progress in Art is from the Artist not the instrument or its set-ups!! remember that!!

progress?
 

Progress? You want Progress?

Out here Progress is a Horse & Buggie..:rolleyes:

I agree with this sentiment, but some artists find artistic progress only when the tools of the trade catch up to what's happening in their head. Case in point, electronic or electro-acoustic music. Whether or not it's your particular cup of musical tea, it's still an art form in it's own right and most electronic music composers I know jump at the latest developments as they become available because the technology has caught up to their ideas. In some cases, I'm sure the bass has done quite the same thing. I'm sure you would be hard pressed to find a symphony cat using plain gut on a regular basis, because the whole sound of the symphony is louder (due in no small part to technology). Indeed, the advancement of technology in regards to the drum set, which did not exist as an instrument 100 years ago prompted the need for more volume on stage, hence amplifiers, metal strings, et al.

However, as Wynton so eloquently put, "The progression of jazz is like taking a bucket of water from a well. Ocassionally you have to return to the well for more water." I do not view the use of gut strings as grossly anachronistic any more than a performance of Beethoven should be considered backward thinking. Good music is good music, and the bulk of its history on the double bass was played on guts. In fact, I have some on the way (in no small part inspired by this thread)!

Thanks for the inspiration Carlos. I may need some help with these things too, if would be so kind?

I like that one Kenny:rolleyes:

I am definetly with Carlos on the gut strng topic. I had weichs, then obligatos, and now pirastro olivs for a,d,g and obligato on the E. The gut sounds great !!! Not a fan of the pure gut, I like the gut wrapped in steel for a bit of growl. As time progressed I wanted a woodier and woodier sound. I got rid of the pick up and now use an AMT microphone exsculsively. The sound i have had in my head is now a reality. And for the salsa enthusiasts, AMPEG BABY BASS + GUT STRINGS = SWINGGGGGGGGGGG. Many say it doesn't matter what type of string you use on the baby bass because of the pickup design but I hear a huge difference. I have 2 Ampegs & a Ray Ramirez Baby. The ampegs have the guts and Ramirez a superflexible solo set. All 3 basses sound wonderful but the ampeg/gut combo sounds much different than the Ramirez. Carlito what do you think of baby bass plus gut strings ?

chorda string guages
 

Standard Chordas are very good strings but my experience is also that they are too heavy - in particuar the D and E. Since Carlos has noted the specs of diameters which he feels are ideal, will Pirastro perhaps make that set available to the public? Otherwise the only way to buy particular guages is to go to the hand made artist strings such as DD and Gamut?

will they?
 

I asked Pirastro that exact question and mentioned the special gauges. I was told they are made to order for him for Jazz and they sent me the normal Orchestra set. Well, if Carlos got those specs from John Schaeffer, the former NY Phil Principal then I would have to assume they are Double Bass gauges and not specific to Jazz. In fact, they are probably for Orchestra if that's what Schaeffer recommended.

Carlos? Please ask John so we don't have to assume. Then, maybe we can pressure Pirastro to make them available. The Chordas look like good quality strings. They just seem a little heavy to me as well.

chorda too heavy?
 

Yes Ken exactly what I was thinking. Pirastro kindly sent me the regular set to try as well - as mentioned I do like them but not sure what gauges they exactly are, anyway the D and E seem especially too thick. I looked up the gauges of dlugolecki and he has a converter there. The figures Carlos gives are pretty much the middle of DD's range which he refers to as not too heavy not too light. The equivalents in his sizing are G - 43 D - 54 A - 51 E - 63

I had to dig up this thread(since I have just joined partially), because this subject has been something I have really been on the fence about throughout my playing from almost the start. There is NOTHING like the sound of a bass with gut strings across the board, into a mic. I don't think you can get either the sound or more importantly the "feel" or same pulse with steel strings. The response is totally different. However, there is something to be said for the clean, sustaining, and lyrical quality of steel strings in the upper register for soloing. I don't know... sometimes I can tolerate playing with gut strings and no amp, but when the leader calls over for me to turn up, or we have a noisy crowd, it can be a drag.

So, now I've played guts for a while and I love it! Feels like I'm home. The only problem right now is that I got a regular Chorda E on and it's damn thick... I like the sound of it (well the sound I can get...) but I have to practice more with it. I understand why your special Chorda is lighter in gauge, Carlos! Before I got the Chorda I had a Garbo E which blends great with the guts, but it's just not gut...

Oh but come on, Andreas. You're just not man enough to play that thick E! :) People have played spun gut for many hundreds of years. It's nothing to be ashamed about. But don't put your Garbo back before I can come over and test drive your chorda. ;)

Don't you worry Joel! A thinner wound gut E is on its way! But I will keep the Chorda for a while. It's starting sound and feel pretty good. :cool:

video from aquila gut string "factory"
 

here is a great video from the aquila string factory

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_Cwe...e=channel_page

very interesting: they talk about a small village in italy where many great stringmaker-families come from: d´addario, pirastro, savarez, la bella, galli etc.

well..
 

I have since tried them and moved on (the Carlos set!). I played Gut in High School and should have left it at that. For the playing I do which these days is mostly Orchestral, I prefer steels like Flexocor or Belcantos, period!

As a matter of fact, I got this Hawkes Bass recently (Carlos knows the bass.. lol) and the first thing I did was take the Guts off and put on some Flexocors.

So if Gut strings rock that's just fine. I don't play Rock!:p

I agree that there is a special sound and feel of playing on real gut strings. I'm talking about plain gut BTW not wound gut like Eudoxa or Oliv. If you're playing jazz then I couldn't imagine playing on anything but gut but for orchestral playing plain gut just doesn't work.

??
 

Really? If you played Jazz and had to push a Band or Big Band or played solos you would see soon why Ray Brown, Milt Hinton, Sam Jones and just about every player I have known CHANGED to Steels..

Audibly, the Guts are too slow and they make you play harder to hear yourself. I see no need at all to play guts at all unless you are playing period music. Even then, any good old bass with bowing steels will sound just about as good in my opinion.

I have played Vivaldi, Bach, Hayden and Mozart concerts mainly with one Bass and two Cellos (Chamber-like) and they loved my sound. Bowing Steels all the way with an old English or Italian bass. No one mentioned after first hearing me that I needed Gut, NO one!

Is that Period enough or we need to go earlier?

Maybe you Gut seekers just need an Older bass, you think?

Hah! That's funny. And probably true I think. That's what I needed.

Well, in contrast to the latest consensus that has been formed, gut is where it's at for me.

Ken was generous enough to trade me his broken in set of Carlos Henriquez Pirastro Chorda strings for a broken in set of Spirocores. I don't know if I will ever go back. I've switched to the regular Chorda's now, but might go back to the C.H. diameters, as that regular Chorda E string is quite the monster. Great sound, but it ain't easy to play.

The things I really enjoy about gut strings is the tone and the feel. The sound is so unique and it seems to be impossible to replicate. It is very warm and full to my ears, but it also has a blunt and un-complex quality that I like very much. It's almost as if the bass is more akin to a timpani than a violin or cello. And, the feel and tension are quite the delight. Pizzicato, there seems to be a larger palate of tonal color, which can be changed by variations in right hand position and pulling technique. Lastly, the lower tension allows me to raise the string height and still play without pain, which means more volume for me. I have taken to playing without an amp lately, so that is definitely a help.

I know there are downsides to the gut strings, but for me and my needs, the pros outweigh the cons.

well,
 

I think in some styles and for some players they work best. I had a set of Labella gut in a bass a few years ago and they were fun for pizz on the bass I had them on but after one Orchestra rehearsal they came off. They just didn't blend well.

I like all things bass to be smooth. Gut to me under my ear just isn't!

Is that just a gut feeling Ken?

??
 

No, it's in the ear!

Ken, there's a difference between playing Baroque and Classical music in a modern settings versus in a period setting - completely different context. There's no such thing as period music without gut strings, just like there's no such thing as modern orchestral music without metal strings (I consider Olivs and Eudoxa to be metal strings). Metal isn't better than Gut, they're just different and one may not be appropriate for certain types of music...If you showed up to a TRUE period gig with metal strings you'd be asked to leave.

I should also mention that gut is way easier on the left hand as they're much lower in tension and softer so you don't have to press down as hard.

ok..
 

Thank's for the lesson old timer..;)

Playing experience has nothing to do with age - wisdom does, and that is why I'm not wise yet! I speak zee truth!

I'm not suggesting we all try and replicate the same sound as Domenico Dragonetti, we can leave that up to John Feeney :).

But in all seriousness, gut strings do "rock", and they're definitely under appreciated. Unfortunately I think their high price is the biggest deterrent for most serious players.

oh?
 

Well I did play on Guts all thru High school but what do I know?:confused:

Aside from all this 'purity' talk, if you are trying to play bass professionally today for the most part, Gut's will not get you there. Even with a better bass, you need the best strings to match that your Bass actually likes.

Just my opinion ..

Guts in a modern orchestra today? No, that will not work and would be silly to attempt. Though, there are many orchestral players that use wrapped guts like Olivs or Eudoxas...These don't sound anything like "real" gut but they have a really nice sound.

I do a lot of playing with baroque groups so I have several sets of oiled up sheep gut strings to put on...I also play with a lot of modern groups so I have a lot of metal strings...Different music, different context.

So what we REALLY need is two instruments! One for your regular gigs, and one that will make those hardcore baroque people call you up. You know, the ones sneering at anything newer than C.P.E. Bach, and at anything spun other than possibly the E string. Period music is becoming all the rage, it seems, and those baroque guys simply won't call you if you don't have the right gear. Then, it can be a really crappy bass, and sound sh1t when you play—at least you'll be playing on Gut, and they'll be satisfied. Maybe you can even purchase the cheapt 'baroque' bow you can find, and they'll be all fired up. :)
(Sometimes, I get the feeling that what these guys really do want to hear is a bit of rock'n'roll attitude, and they couldn't care less about the tonal quality. I kind of sympathize with that. :rolleyes:)

Anyways, that's what it's like in Scandinavia. You go all-in, or you're not in. Of course, the orchestras still do classical symphonies and the occasional Baroque mass, and maybe the leader will try to impose some supposedly old style phrasing on the reluctant musicians brought up in the 20th century, maybe they'll even go as far as to change the E string of the violins to gut... but here we're talking project or freelance type ensembles specialized in period playing, and—as a freelancer—any gig is a gig you don't want to miss, so you better stand and deliver. :cool:

Edit: Oops, Calvin managed to sneak in a reply while I was writing, basically saying the same thing but with fewer words... I'l learn to express myself more concisely, and next it'll be me who posts first!! :p