Tyrol, bohemian , German?
Hi all
i,m about to buy this bass from a former teacher of mine. i already post this same pictures at TB and members jason and paul and some others tell me its Tyrol, Bohemian or German. What do you guys think?..http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/2064/dscf0028bs.th.jpghttp://img264.imageshack.us/img264/2...cf0025b.th.jpghttp://img27.imageshack.us/img27/1702/dscf0023tz.th.jpg |
well..
Does this Bass look similar?
http://www.kensmithbasses.com/double.../tyrolean6.jpghttp://img251.imageshack.us/img251/8049/dscf0030k.jpg The Scroll on your Bass looks different. I need to see from the front and check for a neck graft. Your Neck looks to be set into a block rather then sitting flush on the Top. This to me says that it has been modified and possibly replaced totally, scroll and all. These basses have been known as blockless wonders which you can read more about on this forum here and here. These basses were produced into the early 20th century and I have even seen an old advertisement of them from Wurlitzer in 1922 selling from $90. to $180. for the top model and one with 5-strngs as well at that price. All are advertised as 3/4 models but the string lengths average closer to 43" on some and some at 42". Sears also sold them so there may have been more than one factory making these. The prices included a bow, rosin and fingerboard chart. The top two models were round back. The others I assume were flat. The lowest model possible un-purfled but the 2nd and up were advertised as 'edges are finely inlaid' and ebony fingerboard where the $90 model has no mention of either. The Sears ad which I also have shows a similar bass with the raised neck block area selling for only $75. and can be purchased with only $7.oo down payment. They are 'Made in Germany' according to the ad. This is from 1937. They also state that it comes with 'Imitation old finish'. This may be why they look older than they are. These are made after the first war and before the 2nd war. Of course in 1937 war was breaking out again but this ad is NOT the introduction to the model. Just an old ad I have a copy of. I think after the war in the late 40s the production of these basses are gone. The wood of the top, back and sides are thinner than average and helps the sound at first. This also helps them crack faster as well. With prices like these especially at $75-$90, the wood must have been cut the day before it was varnished or not far from it. That also makes basses crack and fall apart. I have seen many many of these basses and most are in horrible condition. A few however looked half the age of the others. Perhaps these were the more expensive ones with aged timber, what ever aged was back then. Your bass which is usually called Tirolean (Tyrolean) is more than likely from Germany. I don't know really where these were made as southern Germany is at the tip of the Tirol. Maybe some day we will learn which factory made them. In the south I can only think of Baader, a Mittenwald firm that out produced Neuner & Hornsteiner by far and for cheaper from what I have read. Call it German Tirol to play it safe. |
thanks Ken
Hi Ken:
This is great information, the owner was unsure but he assumed that it was early 1800,s ....i,ll have a luthier check for the block, but it feel like it has one on the sides below the neck. The instrument sounds very nice, definitly has ths the complexity of sound of an old instrument in good day I think is better than a so so Italian. Although it has several repaired cracks , For the past 18 years after its restoration has remained in very good condition with no buzzes or cracks.. I understand puting a price is very difficult whithout inspecting the bass in person, but would you say 15 k is an average price for a bass as this. Again i really apreciate your input, tnx a lot,:cool: |
15k?
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Also, this style of building is at least 200 years old so late 1800s is possible. The import dates of the Ads I mentioned above do not necessarily date your exact bass. It could just the the period in which they started buying them for the USA market.. |
tyrol"poor man Italian,s".
Hi Ken:
I just check today for the block me and a luthier/bassist friend of mine and YES there is a block there. Not a very big one but there is one. I also called bassmaker David Estrada who did the restoration 18 years ago and told me the block was there already, he just reasembled that part. So most likly as you said it was already blocked and probably had also another neck put in way earlier. This bass was brought from Poland to Mexico 20 years ago, and before that I been told it was stored for around 40 years. David who did the restoration believes it to be early 1800,s based on his experience with wood oxidation, but again its just his speculation. We also checked the bass bar area and there is no sinkage at all, the Top has a very nice oval shape (bombatura). Anyhow i just close the deal today and I,m buying it based on its unique dark sound, easiness of respone with the bow, and overall complexity of tone. Most likely I,ll use it for chamber music and at home, NOT for the tours.:) Again thanks for your sharing your research on this "Blockless wonders" or "poor man italian,s". |
ok..
The best of luck to you and your new bass. It's always best for the bass to find a new home.
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leave it in?
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integral..
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hey??
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Trust me when I tell you that I cannot count the number of basses that have gone thru my hands. Now you just need to do it and/or learn how to. There is no other option as far as repairing the bass and making it right as far as I can see. If Arnold has time I am sure he will try to explain it. Right now he has to finish the C extension on my big English Bass (Panormo School), pour the top mold for the Storioni and get that bass going and completed this year and then finish one of his basses so he can start the copy bass and finish that as well b4 x-mas. I will be a very very happy man if all goes as planned. .. Then, he can log on and answer questions... lol :p Practice practice practice.. |
bass bar
I have a GA Pfretzschner that is currently under the knife. It had an integeral bass bar which was removed. I wasn't sure it was the thing to do and had to decide whether or not to do it. Turns out there was a crack along side the bass bar so it had to come out, dumb you can be, luck you gotta have. I don't know if it means anything, but the purfling on the back has the same shape, elongated teardrop, I think it is from that same period, it is definatly a Pfretzschner though, it has football shaped stamp inside with makers name
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definatly a Pfretzschner??
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Integral Bar? YES, it's not a real bar so get it shaved out and put a real bar in to save the bass. How was the crack fixed under the bar area? |
GA pfretzschner
No, I don't claim to know anything about the history of this bass, I wish I did. I do know what a good stringbass sounds like. I have the bass in the shop of Robert Ross in Denver CO. I believe him to be a compitent repairman. He has sent me pictures of his progress, the ribs were shortend, and new block on lower bout, he has cleated some cracks on bass bar side of lower bout rib, he has leveled a sag in the top under g-string side of bridge, he has splined a open crack and it looks like all cleats have been replaced. The bass bar has been removed and some over thickness has been changed. The last time I talked to him he said he added some spruce to the area where the sag was. I went on his advice to do the work on this bass, I am hopefull on the outcome.
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sag?
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On my Tirol bass the top will be put in a mold to be corrected and pushed out. The bassbar and cleats removed beforehand and then all re-repaired after the top is back to its correct arch. Wood will be added back to areas that were either made thin in the making originally or thinned by over zealous repairmen down the road. Either way, this is the normal and correct procedure for bringing a bass back to life. I have had many basses repaired in this way. The results were always positive. Give the bass 2-5 years to settle in. Then, it will improved little by little over time with its new wood inside. Like an organ transplant, it taked time for the body to accept its new component. |
design on back..
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http://www.kensmithbasses.com/double...images/705.jpghttp://www.kensmithbasses.com/double.../tyrolean6.jpghttp://www.kensmithbasses.com/double.../bohemian5.jpg I assume it's 1 or 2 but posted the last one which is also a common type design on the backs of German and Germanic style Czech basses as well. The first is typical of north and east Germany and the second is usually from the Tirol German region. |
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yes..
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purfling
Hey Ken, thanks for the info, the shape of the purfling on the back of my bass is exactly like bass no. 2, does this indicate a general date when it was made?
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date?
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purfling
The shape of my purfling on the back of my bass is exactly like number two bass
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well..
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Some were unpurfled. Woods varied from plain to fancy. Mine with all the flame and purfling I have to say was the top of the heap at that time but don't know what was being made when. Importing allows the buyer to choose and order the models desired. The older ones made and used in Europe were not necessarly the same as the models imported in the later pre-war era. Also, mine had Hatpegs on plates before the French gears were fitted. All the pics on the old ads from the 1920s and '30s show metal machines, not hatpegs. |
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