Ken's Corner (Bass Forums Sponsored By KSB)

Ken's Corner (Bass Forums Sponsored By KSB) (http://www.smithbassforums.com//index.php)
-   Classical/Arco (http://www.smithbassforums.com//forumdisplay.php?f=39)
-   -   Thomastik Bel Canto Strings (http://www.smithbassforums.com//showthread.php?t=83)

Brian Ross 08-12-2009 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Smith (Post 14796)
This is a Thread about Belcantos.. ok? If you wanna change the subject, make a new thread. I can easily move some things here over there or better yet, maybe I will just do it later when I find the time..


Sorry. Just wanted to clear up the misinformation in this thread.

Ken Smith 08-12-2009 05:12 PM

ok..
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Smith (Post 13945)
I have them on my Gilkes(Jilkes) and Martini now. For the Martini, I pulled them off the Hart and switched for the 92s Flex's that were on the bass.

The Extension E/C Belcanto string is a heavier and tighter gauge than the regular E-string. This makes a huge difference.

I put on a new set at the ISB during the show one day and the difference between them and the Flexocor 92s was amazing. The Gilkes has never sounded so full and deep as it does now. The Flexocors are more colorful but less round in the sound. My Martini is a more colorful bass 'period' and the color still shines thru with the Bel's on it so it's not just the String. The Martini is sweet either way.

Getting back to Belcantos here, shortly after putting the Bel's on my Martini from the Hart and putting some new Evah's on the Hart, I decided that I preferred the sound of the Bel's on the Hart over 92s and Evah's so.. I switched strings once again on these and put the Evah's on the martini and the Bel's back on the Hart. The Hart sounds great now and the martini although not as smooth as it was with Bel's still sounds great with the EV Weichs on it.

IF, I have to choose only one string for every bass, I would be in big trouble. Bel's work best on many basses but not all. Sometimes the grittier bite of a Flexocor or Orig. FlatChrome is just what the doctor ordered...

Calvin Marks 08-13-2009 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Smith (Post 14879)
Getting back to Belcantos here, shortly after putting the Bel's on my Martini from the Hart and putting some new Evah's on the Hart, I decided that I preferred the sound of the Bel's on the Hart over 92s and Evah's so.. I switched strings once again on these and put the Evah's on the martini and the Bel's back on the Hart. The Hart sounds great now and the martini although not as smooth as it was with Bel's still sounds great with the EV Weichs on it.

IF, I have to choose only one string for every bass, I would be in big trouble. Bel's work best on many basses but not all. Sometimes the grittier bite of a Flexocor or Orig. FlatChrome is just what the doctor ordered...

Belcanto is a very nice string indeed. It has quite a robust sound for a fairly low tension string and the pizz sound is very nice. They're better strings than Evah's IMO because the Evah's are so high tension and large in gauge that it makes playing a chore.

I've also heard that the Bel Ext C is the best out there.

Richard Prowse 08-22-2009 05:35 PM

I'm in total agreement Calvin.
My Bel Canto strings have been on my main bass (I only have two) for most of this year and will be staying put. They've settled down nicely - both for arco and pizz. The whole range sounds great. They're a joy to play.

Richard Prowse 08-28-2009 12:01 AM

I love Bel Canto strings.

Scott Pope 09-04-2012 03:11 PM

Well, here goes: the Bels GDA with the Spiro 3885.5W E have been perfect for my jazz & dance band gigs the last few months playing mostly standards. Now, for something completely different: I'm playing a cross-over country/rock/rockabilly gig this weekend. Last year I played this gig with Spiro Weichs, and of course, with so much sustain and growl that Spiros are known for, I could make them do what I needed to. The Bels, of course, are rounder and darker in tone. We'll see....

Scott Pope 09-10-2012 04:54 PM

Well, a little preamp gain and touch of compression can go a long way to make a gig work. Although it probably sounded fine out front, I was not happy with the darkness of the Bels for this particular gig, which comes as no surprise as they are really not meant for this kind of gig. But the bandleader liked it, and with strings being expensive, I'm not sure I'm in a position right now to have different string sets for different gigs.

Great experience, however.

Ken Smith 09-10-2012 05:28 PM

humm..?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott Pope (Post 25204)
Well, a little preamp gain and touch of compression can go a long way to make a gig work. Although it probably sounded fine out front, I was not happy with the darkness of the Bels for this particular gig, which comes as no surprise as they are really not meant for this kind of gig. But the bandleader liked it, and with strings being expensive, I'm not sure I'm in a position right now to have different string sets for different gigs.

Great experience, however.

I am curious. If you are doing mainly Pizz type jazz/pop playing, why not just use Spiro reds? They pizz better, more clear and cost less? The Belcantos were designed for Orchestra bowing so every problem you have in Pizz playing is because they focused on the opposite, bowing!

Most basses do not do both orchestra bowing and jazz pizz equally well with the same set of strings on the same bass. If Bowing is your goal, Bel's are a good choice for some depending on the bass, tone and style you play. If it is jazz you are looking to do, I would not suggest these strings for most players for the reasons mentioned.

Richard Prowse 09-10-2012 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Smith (Post 25205)
I am curious. If you are doing mainly Pizz type jazz/pop playing, why not just use Spiro reds? They pizz better, more clear and cost less? The Belcantos were designed for Orchestra bowing so every problem you have in Pizz playing is because they focused on the opposite, bowing!

Most basses do not do both orchestra bowing and jazz pizz equally well with the same set of strings on the same bass. If Bowing is your goal, Bel's are a good choice for some depending on the bass, tone and style you play. If it is jazz you are looking to do, I would not suggest these strings for most players for the reasons mentioned.

I agree, they're too loose for pizz playing. The EP weichs have a good jazz sound but are a bit slow under the bow.

Scott Pope 09-10-2012 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Smith (Post 25205)
I am curious. If you are doing mainly Pizz type jazz/pop playing, why not just use Spiro reds? They pizz better, more clear and cost less? The Belcantos were designed for Orchestra bowing so every problem you have in Pizz playing is because they focused on the opposite, bowing!

Most basses do not do both orchestra bowing and jazz pizz equally well with the same set of strings on the same bass. If Bowing is your goal, Bel's are a good choice for some depending on the bass, tone and style you play. If it is jazz you are looking to do, I would not suggest these strings for most players for the reasons mentioned.

I got the Bels for three reasons: I wanted a dark pizz tone to try, by reputation these are the easiest strings for arco out there, and I got them slightly used really inexpensively by comparison to their new list price. Well, despite my best efforts and ongoing consultations with and help from my friends who teach, arco is probably just not going to happen, in spite of all the work I've put into it. I am left handed, but I have always played musical instruments conventionally right handed. So the same reason I'm not having much luck developing a good arco technique is the same reason I do not play 5-string banjo or play fingerpick style guitar: the right hand faculty just is not there beyond traditional index & middle jazz pizz technique, although from mashing valves since 5th grade my right hand works well for tuba. Worse, my right hand cramps, irrespective of French or German bow, or any reasonable adaptation of grip on either that my friends have had me try. These are my limitations as a player, and I came to terms with that some time ago.

Now, for these "standards" jazz/dance band gigs I've been playing, the band leaders have really enjoyed the tone and the flavor of pizz the Bels produce. I like the feel of the strings and the relatively even tension across the board.

Richard: yes, they are a little lighter than Spiro Mittels, but for the same reasons that I had to have a custom fanned-fret electric bass made, so I could keep playing in spite of old injuries cropping up and causing me grief, I won't be using any strings that are any firmer, including Spiro Mitts, and yes, I've also had my bass looked over for setup, as we all know that a good setup will do more for ease of playing than any set of light tension strings. I think you'd agree it's hard to get any more "playable" than the tension of the Bels, on an even shorter 40.5 mensure, (false nutted down an inch - and if you saw my left pinky you'd know why) with string heights at the end of the fingerboard of 4-5-6-7 mm on G-D-A-E respectively, with no buzzing at all anywhere, and even then, at the end of a 3-hour gig, I've still been known to soak my hands in ice water, and, well, we're not even going to discuss my wedding ring over my knuckle. Even at that, I know I could get some Velvet Blues, or a set of any of the different models of solo gauge strings and tune them down to get even less tension, but then they wouldn't drive my top sufficiently for tone and stability. For now, as long as I can deal with them, the Bels are, for me, a good balance of heavy enough tension to drive my top but light enough I can actually play them all night. Every body else's mileage will vary.

If I play other gigs of the sort I did Saturday, I do have Jazzers in reserve, also purchased slightly used at a great price, that I will change into going forward. But for only two or three gigs per year of what I did Saturday, in an informal setting, I'm not too concerned.

The bottom line (pun intended) is that on my particular bass the S42 Weich Spiros I had initially were so growly on my bass they almost sounded like Rotosound Swingbass electric bass strings by comparison. Ironically, for that very reason they were a great transition, tonally, from playing electric bass in these bands until I purchased my double bass a few years ago and got up to speed with it.

Now, my band leaders really like what I'm doing with the Bels, and my opportunities for gigs have expanded. So as long as the guys who hire me like them, they're staying on. If they start getting too dark, or if I get asked to play with a different tone, or if my playing takes a different turn as to the balance of kinds of gigs I play, then I'll try something else. In the meantime, as my avocation, not my vocation, I'm having a great time with them and making enough on the side as a "weekend warrior" to be really fun and worth my while: I like them, my band leaders like them, our audiences like them. I get asked to play again: what more could a guy in my position ask for?!

If arco had worked out for me, we'd be having a completely different discussion, of course. And I did change out the Bel E for a Spiro 3/4 3885.5W E for the very reasons mentioned: the arco tone on the Bel E was great, but the pizz was just too dark, and I changed it out as soon as it became apparent that my arco was not going to get appreciably better, and sold it down the line to the next guy working on arco.

Richard Prowse 09-11-2012 12:21 AM

All good Scott, stay with the BCs. Hey, they worked fine for me in a gypsy jazz band a few years back.
I'm just a little worried about your lefthandedness and giving up bowing.
I too am left handed, but play the traditional way - I started playing violin around 1960 and people just didn't consider switching an instrument around back then. Though, I do suspect that I am slightly ambidexterous.
Look, my head is presently full of man-cold and I'm probably not thinking my best but getting on top of the bass bow takes a long time. Even after having been brought up on the violin, I remember bowing the bass for many years before I started to feel that I could really bow.
My advice - just do a little bowing each day, say 10 minutes, as you start your practice. Just bow long notes and listen for a nice sound and try to enjoy that sound.
I know Ken will disagree but, if you have hand problems, go German. Back off on the pressure - pull and push.
Cheers yankee mate.

Scott Pope 09-11-2012 07:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Prowse (Post 25211)
I know Ken will disagree but, if you have hand problems, go German. Back off on the pressure - pull and push.
Cheers yankee mate.

That causes the inside of the fleshy part between my thumb and index finger to cramp. French causes the outside to cramp. No, for me, the ergonomics of arco just aren't there. I do appreciate the thought.

-- And BTW: after I got done posting last night, I got a phone call with a referral from our band's keyboard player, who is actually more of a bass player, to another gig, but who referred me instead of taking the gig himself because he believes I can read the gig better than he could. So life is good.

Ken Smith 09-11-2012 09:41 AM

ok, but..
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott Pope (Post 25212)
That causes the inside of the fleshy part between my thumb and index finger to cramp. French causes the outside to cramp. No, for me, the ergonomics of arco just aren't there. I do appreciate the thought.

-- And BTW: after I got done posting last night, I got a phone call with a referral from our band's keyboard player, who is actually more of a bass player, to another gig, but who referred me instead of taking the gig himself because he believes I can read the gig better than he could. So life is good.

Ok, but don't give up on bowing. Get a good teacher and study the Bow properly. Bowing practice will take you to new places. The pain is worth the gain. Bad technique will cause cramps in minutes or even seconds. Bowing will strengthen even your left hand playing. That is a fact.

Scott Pope 09-11-2012 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Smith (Post 25215)
Ok, but don't give up on bowing. Get a good teacher and study the Bow properly. Bowing practice will take you to new places. The pain is worth the gain. Bad technique will cause cramps in minutes or even seconds. Bowing will strengthen even your left hand playing. That is a fact.

Respectfully, Ken, after talking to my physician, and taking Tylenol and ice packs at the limit (I can't take anything else like ibuprofin due to a genetic clotting disorder), the pain is not worth the gain. After all the other injuries over the years, it makes it worse, not better. I wish it were different. But it's not. The guy who works with me, who I've known since we were 14 in band camp together, has taught for decades and is a bass player himself, not just a general strings teacher. The guy who reviewed my setup is a bass guy also, not just a general strings repairman, and has passed on my setup. Both have played my bass.

Oh, well, I've carried on too long. For what I am doing right now, the Bels are great. Thanks for everybody's help and encouragement. It's time for someone else to take a turn talking about them.

Josh Holdridge 10-07-2012 01:12 PM

Hello,

Can someone please explain what was said in an early post about 'string spin'?
I'm not familiar with this metric and I'm interested since I have a new bass.

To avoid appearance of taking this thread off topic, I'll put in my .02c about bel cantos. I have Flexo 92's on my bass (less than 1yr old) and was reasonably satisfied but not totally. I wanted something darker and warmer, bassically I'm impatient for it to sound old!

Put the BC's on there and immediately liked the deeper, thuddier sound of pizz. A little more gut-like sound, and lower tension than the Flexocors; buttery sound in some of the higher notes.
The jury is still out on the bowing. I'm going to try them in a few rehearsals and see how it goes. I have noticed that some notes seem easier to start but will have to see how they do on vigorous spicatto passages. The tone isn't too different from the 92's, my basses character seems to override the string difference a little bit, but they do have a bit less of an 'edge', which is ok with me.
I seemed to be getting a lot of scratchiness with the 92's though admittedly my technique has a long way to go. But if there is something about the BC's that is better for breaking in a new instrument, then I'd probably keep them on for a while.

Bin Hire 10-07-2012 04:06 PM

One thing I have noticed about strings is that the famous players seem to stick with one type. Apologies if I'm wrong with this statement. I know this was true of NHOP and, I think, Ray Brown. Gary Karr seems to stay with the same strings too? Have they found the perfect string for their purpose? I suppose they have. I have a friend who is a trumpet player and he seems to be constantly trying mouthpieces. I suspect that all these modern 'super strings' are very good. Maybe we just need to stick with one set for a few years and look at our technique. Apologies, I don't mean to be critical, but I think I have a tendency personally to blame the tools when it is the workman (in my case). Just a thought I had.

Ken Smith 10-07-2012 06:21 PM

??
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Josh Holdridge (Post 25439)
Hello,

Can someone please explain what was said in an early post about 'string spin'?
I'm not familiar with this metric and I'm interested since I have a new bass.

To avoid appearance of taking this thread off topic, I'll put in my .02c about bel cantos. I have Flexo 92's on my bass (less than 1yr old) and was reasonably satisfied but not totally. I wanted something darker and warmer, bassically I'm impatient for it to sound old!

Put the BC's on there and immediately liked the deeper, thuddier sound of pizz. A little more gut-like sound, and lower tension than the Flexocors; buttery sound in some of the higher notes.
The jury is still out on the bowing. I'm going to try them in a few rehearsals and see how it goes. I have noticed that some notes seem easier to start but will have to see how they do on vigorous spicatto passages. The tone isn't too different from the 92's, my basses character seems to override the string difference a little bit, but they do have a bit less of an 'edge', which is ok with me.
I seemed to be getting a lot of scratchiness with the 92's though admittedly my technique has a long way to go. But if there is something about the BC's that is better for breaking in a new instrument, then I'd probably keep them on for a while.

What bass are you referring to? Your profile is kind of vague.

Josh Holdridge 10-08-2012 03:44 PM

Hi Ken,

The bass I'm referring to is a new Thomas & George Martin 4/4. I guess I was trying to be a little vague to keep certain info on the down low.

Bunny Hoskins 10-11-2012 01:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Josh Holdridge (Post 25455)
I guess I was trying to be a little vague to keep certain info on the down low.

Welcome to New Zealand buddy. :D

Josh Holdridge 10-11-2012 11:52 AM

Lol, thanks Bunny. I was hoping to avoid listing my name and then advertising that I have an expensive instrument at home. Oh well, too late for that. I guess it's need to know in relation to my question.

Hope I can find out about my inquiry anyway. . .


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:37 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2007 - Ken Smith Basses, LTD. (All Rights Reserved)