Any ideas what this bass might be (worth)?

[Johannes Felscher]

Hello everybody,

first of all this is my first posting on this great forum, and I hope that some of you might have some input!
I was offered a bass which is in good shape, supposedly German and around 80-100 years old. All repairs seem to be done well. The bass has a destroyed German label of "Wilhelm Uebel - violin & bass repairs and...(something like that)", hard to tell if that's the actual builder or someone who did repairs in the past. Another label is from Kolstein (I guess I should go and ask him too after the weekend): Restored in 1999.

I didn't take too many pictures, but you hopefully get the idea. The body seems to be 3/4, maybe even slightly on the small side and sounds puts out a lot of fundamental for it's size, good projection, very articulate and great lows, especially when played pizz. Scale lenght is 42,5".
The asking price is 10k, and even though the bass seems to be a bit more sophisticated than many generic German shop basses I've recently tried (another thread on those to come), I'm not sure if the price tag is justified. I know it's gonna be hard to judge from the very few pictures, but by the time I had it at home for trial I didn't feel like taking too many photos, would become handy now.

Any input on this one?

Johannes

PS: On the picture with two basses it's the one in the front. I hope you don't mind the mess of sheets underneath, didn't expect to make these accessible to anyone. ;-)

[Johannes Felscher]

PS: On some of the pics the varnish seems a bit too orange, I think the close-up of the bridge gives the best idea of it's color though slightly underexposed.

[Ken Smith]

It is a German Bass in the 100 year range. I have a bass about 99.99% exactly the same. I would venture to say from the same shop in Germany. Mine is in restoration so I can't show it to you but it is just about the exact bass. For a moment, I looked twice to see if it was mine but it's not strung up yet. It was poorly restored in the past which caused its current internal collapse. It too has a Kolstein repair label. It also has an appraisal as an 1860 Mirecourt French bass. Although these are French type solo model influenced basses, it does not make them French. The outer linings on your bass and how it miters across the neck joint is typical German work. The appraisal says typical Mirecourt 'lipping' which I don't subscribe to. I have never in my life seen a certified French bass with outer linings. French looking basses with outer linings are made in Germany.

You have there a German bass from about 100 years ago or so and that is a fair price IF the work inside does not include a sprung bass bar which mine did or a sunken top at the bar side or any other damage that would cause it to need the work done over again but correctly this time.

If you can borrow the bass and take it to Arnold, Jeff or myself you will be able to get a good idea what the bass needs or does not. There is no one else between NY and Pa that I would add to that short list for review.

Getting opinions on line as to the worth of a bass on the internet is no better than getting medical advice and acting upon it afterwards.

[Johannes Felscher]

Dear Ken,

first of all: thanks a lot for your quick and profound reply, I really appreciate it! Being in NY without a car, stopping by yours or Arnold's shop isn't that easy after all, but that's something on my list for the near future.

Anyway, funny coincidence that you happen to have the (very) same bass, but you may rest assured, I didn't secretly take yours. :-)

The bass seems to be healthy as far as I could tell at the first glance, but as you would probably guess I didn't have a strobe light and / or any other equipment handy, so I couldn't judge what the bass bar looked like. Speaking of a sinking top: it looked fine, but there is a minor oddity, not sure if that qualifies as what you mentioned (didn't attach the pictures on with my first posting, there were two too many)...it's more visible on one of the pictures, I guess you'll get the idea though (it's the instrument on the left on both pics).

And btw., I agree that a first hand luthier's inspection shouldn't be substituted by a quick "online-inspection" in general, this was the best that I could do at this point, might be able to take the bass home once more for a few more days...

[Ken Smith]

I also mentioned bass specialist maker/luthier Jeff Bollbach. He is in Long Island and one of the few that I trust with my best basses. Go see him with the bass being that he is closest to you.

On that pic of yours above you can see from the F-hole sticking out that the Top wood is below it. That means it has sunk by the bar. Some basses just settle a bit and safe to leave as-is. It is that needed trip to a luthier like Jeff that will let you know if you are safe or not.

On my bass the string length was also long and closer to an Eb neck. The only way to make it more marketable in todays world is a new neck graft shortening the playing length overall. My goal is for 42" or slightly less.

Is there any way to show a pic of that torn German label inside. There are many makers named Uebel in the 18th and 19th centuries but only one listed as W.Uebel in the last quarter of the 19th century, not listed as Wilhelm though. He (W.Uebel) was from Markneukirchen Germany which was later East Germany on the German/Czech border. I suspected my bass to be from that area rather than further south in Mittenwald mainly because of the roundback. Most old Mittenwalders are Flat backs. There is some slight possibility that his shop made these basses of ours but also a 50/50 chance at this point he either repaired it or the lable doesn't belong to the bass. The dates of the late 19th and early 20th centuries pre-WWI fits W.Uebel's period as does the area in which he worked.

Another larger Orchestra model Bass was sold not once but twice as a 1850-60's French Parisian Bass by another big shop in NY in the last couple of decades as well. I had a chance to examine that bass and could see just as with our basses how a dealer could 'loosely' call it French but in reality, the work is totally German. Style of design does not make it the nationality of its looks. It has to fit the work. When you see a bass like that regardless of size or design with outer linings and it is marked as French, be on the alert that this is probably 10 out of 9 times false.

Many fine basses were made in Germany that were not Shop or Factory basses but rather hand made instruments just like a fine French, Italain or English bass only it's German. Many of the nicer German basses are called something other than German, possibly for profit reasons but also due to mistake in identity. The countless factory basses imported to USA in the last century has clouded our judgment as to what a better quality German bass might be.

One more related story if I may. I was at the first rehearsal (of 3 or 4) for a Mahler 1 concert in which the orchestra was enlarged for this production and 3 new basses were hired in as subs. The guy on the end (I placed him there..lol) had a dark varnished sloped shouldered bass like ours but with a flatback. It had 100 year old Mittenwald gears on the bass like those I have seen on Neuner & Hornsteiner basses, the exact ones and the purfling ran all around the top and back as well like on French basses and our twins as well. So, to poke around I asked him on the break "hey, do you happen to know what pedigree your bass is?" asking him in a respectful manner as he was a total stranger to me. I was willing to bet my house that he bought it as a French bass. He replied "It's a Lupo!".. .. Lol.. Ok, now he was not only lied to at the time of sale but his bass was placed up there name wise with the likes of Panormo and Strad. Lupo was the French Strad and was a violin maker for the most part if not exclusively. There is no such thing as a Lupo bass that I know of and Lupo predates his bass by about a century. Also, that style of Bass is mainly closer to the 20th century, however I have seen a couple of claims that some of them were Vuillaume basses that were actually French but sloped shouldered.

So, it seems almost a common practice that any nicer made German bass that looks French in design becomes one once it passes thru a dealers hands when it goes to market.

Please, don't sell me a Chevy Impala as a Lincoln Town Car. It just isn't, plain and simple, not even close.

In closing, my friend that was sold a Parisian French Bass that was 30-40 years later made in Germany was looking a bit disappointed shortly after hearing my assessment. I then went on to add, "be thankful that it IS a German bass. It sounds better than most of the French I have heard." On average a similar model French bass and a German made example of the same outline, the French for some reason sell for more. First off, it takes the idea of 'factory' out of the buyers mind if it's not German as that's what most of us know about German basses here and second, it implies it's higher up the pedigree chain. This is also totally false.

I have used several Italian and English basses in Orchestra but I have also proudly played on a few German Basses on the job as well. Currently I am gearing up to use my Mittenwald Bass for part of the season after getting it back from Jeff Bollbach with a beautiful C-Extension on it. It can sit beside my better basses and do just as well on the job.

I can just as easily call my Mittenwald bass English or Italian as I have seen similarities in both. It is just what it is and I am proud to label it as such.

[Sam Finlay]

Too often German basses are misrepresented as French, English or Italian. Sometimes it's an honest mistake. I'm sure that I, myself, have been fooled by the "style" and missed some indicators of German craftsmanship. Sometimes, basses that were made in what is now The Czech Republic are called "German." I can't blame anyone for making that mistake because the schools of construction are so closely related and the political borders have been so blurred over the last few centuries.

Sometimes the mistake is not what is seems to be on the surface. For quite a long period of time, Germans did "rough work" for known makers all over Europe. Sometimes a bass that is, for all intents and purposes, an English bass willl have been "started" by German craftsmen who were very skilled and would work for very very little money. Instrument-making is an art, but has rarely been done for free.

The business has always looked for ways to create quality products for less money. To think otherwise is naive.Today, the same thing is happening with Hungarian, Romanian and Chinese makers. A bass might come out of the shop of a French, English or American maker with an "authentic" label affixed to the back that began its life (if you will) in the workshop of a skilled worker in a country that could do the work inexpensively. Once the bass was finished by the maker whose name the label bears, the bass is officially "made by" that maker. This is a reality I am uncomfortable with, but have had to tolerate as to not call into question the work of men and women who make their living providing fine instruments for the market. It is the maker's final work -- whatever that might be-- and his or her skill at choosing fine materials, models, and techniques that the player is investing in, I have come to believe.

As Ken says here and as I (and Jeff and Arnold and Andrew and Barry and Gary and Aaron and Aaron and Don and Bryce) say(s) often, an instrument is a good instrument if it is constructed well, maintained diligently, produces a good sound consistently and is comfortable to play. Some of these criteria are objective and some are subjective. A person can describe some of these things and some of these things need to be experienced to be understood. I, more often than not, find German basses to be fantastic investments because they are almost always constructed well and, to my tastes, often produce a nice sound while never being priced at the top of the market.

Ken, you should come and see the Mittenwald bass that Mike and Sprocket are finishing up now. It will been completely restored here and has had a long career in orchestras. From what I can tell, it will be a cannon.

Johannes, that bass you have is great, but we encourage you to have it looked at by another shop before you purchase it. The person who owns it now brought it to us because they knew that we would represent it fairly. We always try our best to get prospective buyers to put their opinions contexts other than the one we have here at the shop. Although our collection is huge, and the luthiers here are trusted by most of the world's jazz and classical bassists, there is no substitute for another well-informed opinion. We don't want to sell something that you will not like. That is not a good business model. David Gage has been here for more than 30 years. He has not lasted that long looking to pass something off for a one-time sale. If you find that another dealer or luthier disagrees with our assessment of condition or value, we want to hear that opinion and often we want to talk about with you and the seller of the instrument to make sure that the deal is fair on both sides.

German basses rule. Get lots of opinions when spending a lot of money (duh). Play something that you like, not something that someone says you should like (double duh).

Sorry for the long post,

Sam Finlay
DGSI