Roebuck Bass?

[Brian Casey]

So, I've been looking at older basses - with more complex sonorities than my Christopher 401F - around my area for a few months now.

I'm very curious about what any of you might be able to tell me about this bass. Here's what I know, from the seller:

- Turn of the Century carved German 7/8 with 42" SL
- Complete Restoration just finished by Don Kinch, Portland, Or.
- Formerly a Blockless Bass, added block was part of recent restoration
- Humped sides as they approach the heel, as seen in photos
- Reportedly made for Sears Roebuck for Mail Order business
(I've never heard of this, but the seller seems to consider it a real possibility...)

and my own impressions:

- Hat peg ends cut off; no longer rounded, but saw marks visible
- Varnish touched up and still a little tacky... ( I don't like the feel, but does this matter?)
- Nice, Big sound, but I think still settling in. Has the complexity of sound I'm looking for in a bass
- Neck feels like a V; not thick side to side, but seems very deep in the middle....Kind of uncomfortable and part o fmy hesitency, along with the cut Hat Pegs and 'sticky' varnish.

I'm just curious if anyone has anything specific to add from what I've mentioned ( especially the Sears Roebuck comment) or from the pictures.

This is in the top three basses I'm considering, and is the lowest asking price. (I'm not mentioning the asking price at this time to keep any replies uncolored by that information. I'll happily respond with the asking price upon request...)

I appreciate in advance thoughts or information any of you might offer on this instrunent.

brian

[Arnold Schnitzer]

I've seen the old Sears Roebuck catalogs where blockless basses were selling for $25 to 50. It's possible this was one of them. The "sticky" varnish is likely due to a recent polishing. The thick neck can be recontoured for not a lot of money. Hat pegs can be repaired with new peg shafts. So what's the problem?

How much?

[Brian Casey]

Thanks for your reply, Arnold.

There's really no problem with this bass. The seller and I both generally liked the sound, I am having a hard time adjusting to the feel (easily re-shaped neck, as you indicated, would help I'm sure)

My reluctance is based on a couple of other basses in town that 'spoke' to me with more immediacy. They are both, however, about $1000-1500 more than this one. The seller has his 'Roebuck' bass listed on our local Craisglist for $6750. I think he'll accept offer within 10% of that or so, but not less, I'm sure, since he just had it fully restored, with a new block, FB, corrections to poor repairs, etc. Just seems a little high to me for what it is and how it spoke to me. The other basses (an early 20th c. German, sold as an A. Wilfer, negotiated down to $6950 but needing a new FB soon and a turn of the c. Stowasser with an asking price of $8K; I'll offer 7 and see where it leads) just seemed to me to have a noticably bigger sound, richer resonance and warmth and felt more playable -to me...

I also have a couple photos of the removed top and inside of the bass, in the interest of full disclosure - seems like Ken's server is having problems; or mine is. I'll try to post the pictures of the insides a little later.

What's your take on this bass at around $6500 ?

brian

[Arnold Schnitzer]

It sounds very cheap. With several contenders within a small price range, you would be wise to go after the one that really speaks to you, even if it is a little more expensive. You might feel a temporary financial pinch, but this is your instrument, your voice we're talking about. In a year you will forget about the money. Please do yourself a favor and visit a luthier you trust for a pre-purchase inspection to make sure you are not buying yourself a bunch of problems. Also, if you have the chance, play the bass you really want in a large space, for a musician whose ears you trust. Better yet, take another bass player with you so you can listen from the business end.

[Brian Casey]

Thanks, Arnold.

I've been leaning toward your advice about spending a little extra to get what comes closest to the sound and feel I'm after, and your input has helped validate that.

To clarify, your statement that it sounds cheap indicates that you feel the price is a good one, right? (As opposed to something along the lines of the bass is cheaply made and not at the level of the asking price...)

I'll play each of the three basses I'm looking at again in the next week or two, hopefully in the same room. I just want to verify my initial responses to all these instruments before dropping that much cash.

Thanks again for your comments. whatever I end up buying, I'll post in the appropriate section here to get as much information as I can about my new bass...

brian

[Ken Smith]

I know of these Basses as 'Blockless Wonders'. Recently one came over to my shop as a possible trade-in. It sounded great but needed a ton of work. Also, the Bass looked to be well over 100 years old and with its distress could easily pass for 150-200 years old. I called and discussed this Bass with our esteemed Arnold and he quickly put me on the right path.

I know now about the Sears thing but for just how long have these Basses been in production? I have seen at least 5 varieties of 'raised' Neck Block model Basses. They include the German-Tyrol version that some call Italian, another that seems to be made closer to the Bohemian region, an occasional Italian Bass with a slightly raised Block and recently I examined a late 19th century English Bass made by an unknown maker with his handwritten label inside the Bass. The 5th version are the Yankee Prescott School Basses we see with raised Blocks as well.

Most of these Basses are flatbacked. I have personally owned two of them and they both had a Block in them. One was a 'small 7/8ths/large 3/4' labeled 'Sebastian Klotz 1791' with a flatback and the other was a '5/8ths/small 3/4' with a roundback and seemed to be fairly old. The 5/8ths was fully purfled and had a beautiful tone. The 7/8 was never used by me as I bought it on a 2-week gig in Pittsburgh (1975) and popped the Top in the hotel room to start the restoration asap. It badly needed repairs and popping the top then assured it would not get played. I sold that Bass years later with 90% of the work completed.

I understand from Arnold that the 'Blockless' design is an old Gamba/Viol technique stemming back centuries but made famous in southern Germany near or in the Tyrol/Tirol some 100+ years ago. The Sears & Roebuck imports seems to have supplied many musicians with good sounding new Basses possibly less expensive than other French, German and Italian Basses brought over by individuals.

These Basses were often made with ultra thin tops which helped them to sound good at an early age. Down the road however this has proven to be its downfall. The Bass I had in the shop recently was termed as being 'negative value'. This being because the restoration would cost more then the value of the Bass. I informed the current owner that being it is a good sounding Basses and still playable as-is, use it in pit jobs or other situations where you would not bring a good Bass and consider it your extended insurance premium.

Many Basses exist now that need massive repairs and restorations that cost more than the Value of the Bass and these are not just Blockless Wonders either. One such fine early 20th century German Bass recently came thru my shop as well and it too had a dilemma. It sounds great and plays fine as-is. It does however need a full restoration in order to receive a clean bill of health. The estimated sale value of the Bass in its current condition is 10k. If restored for a minimum of 6-8k, the value fully restored would be only 12-15k max! Doing the math it is easy to see the Bass is worth more left alone. To me though as a dealer it is worth the total restored value less the needed restoration which is only about 4k using the lowest value and highest repair cost (12-8). In my mind there is still no profit in that purchase price because I would only be breaking even and investing quite a sum to do so.

Why am I writing all this? For one, to educate others and warn them as well that buying an old Bass without a complete inspection by a professional Bass Luthier can be a huge mistake. Secondly to bring to light these Blockless Basses so we can all learn more about them and that there is more than one origin for them with the Tyrol often being the main source.

One Bass I have owned for years and used as well in every possible setting is in great shape visually for a 100+ year old Bass. The only problem is that the Repairs inside being done by many over time are not done that well at all. I was recently informed after an inspection that it would be best and an improvement if the Top was 'popped' and everything re-repaired at an estimated cost of 5k. The Top looks perfect without any sinking but some cracks needed some re-gluing. This caused the internal inspection discovering the poorly done existing repairs from decades ago before I ever owned the Bass. This good sounding handmade Bass which was also Blockless at the start is worth the restoration mainly due to a combination of what it is totally worth after and what I will have spent up until that point. The 'math' is good here!

Do the Math and consult the best people you can. Get more then one opinion when possible and spend your money wisely. Then go home and practice. This Beethoven's 9th is killing me...lol Having a nice practice Bass at home helps too!