When does an "old" bass become a "new" bass.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Jeremy Darrow

Over the long lifespan of antique instruments it's not unusual for integral parts to be replaced due to damage or for updates, like neck grafts. I'm curious if there is a consensus regarding when a bass that was made by one maker ceases to really be the original and becomes another bass. One that should not be referred to by the original makers name. For example, I think a replaced rib or two is perfectly reasonable, likewise for a neck graft. But once a bass has been re-topped, I have a hard time considering it the same bass it was before the repair.

What do the experts say? Thanks for reading.

Jeremy

I think the Top is #1 followed by the Back and then the Varnish. The Ribs less important as is the shoulder cuts made on a good number of old Italian and some English Basses as well as other schools. The Scroll is a big part of the value for originality but not the sound. The Varnish is important for the value but in many cases, not as big a deal as made out to be as many many old basses had the varnish replaced a century ago or more. This includes Strads and the like in violins. Varnish gets worn off and touched up or replaced. A great sounding pedigree instrument will suffer less in value loss than one sold on pedigree alone. My opinion here. Still, I prefer original varnish if at all possible. Original varnish does not however sell the bass. Sound and playability does.

Here's a good and personal experience (or two). I have a very old Blockless Tyrolean bass in need of restoration. I consulted 3 Lutheirs on this bass. The Top is sunk. The Bass needs a Neck block, Back repairs, Rib repairs and a Scroll repair with Neck graft.

Luthier 1 and 3 said they would take the job and keep the bass 100% original with the exception of adding a needed neck block and neck graft. They would also repair the damaged scroll with its own wood taking from the discarded Heel portion. Luthier #2 said the for the cost of the Top repair he would just make a new Top. Also, rather then grafting a Neck and repairing the Scroll which already has an old repair to the pegbox he would just put on a new one-piece German Neck/Scroll on the bass and save me some money.

My opinion: How many basses have you seen for sale in USA and in Europe advertised on-line with new tops and backs? How long or how many years have these new old basses been waiting for a buyer? I once saw an Amati violin listed for sale but the Top and Scroll was replaced in the 19th century. So, what did Amati make? The Back and Ribs? I would call that maker X from the 19th century with an older Amati back and ribs, not a full fledged/listed Amati.

I will spend more on a full restoration on this Tirol Bass my way but will have more in return when it is done. Also, when it goes to market I wont have to make excuses about a replaced Top or Scroll.

Also, I had and sold a Loveri Bass that was cut all around from a Cello shaped bass to a Pear shaped model. The Top and Back was all re-purfled and the Ribs were fully replaced. The Bass was from 1873 and the repairs/cut from 1937. This was a beautiful bass. One that I could live with if I had to. It sold for maybe half the amount it would of if the shape and ribs were original. The Varnish on the Scroll, Back and Top were original but touched up after the cut some 70 years ago. The Ribs were varnished when made but well matched. So well matched I thought all of the bass was re-varnished until closer inspection, much closer.

If the Top is original, I think its an old repaired bass. If the Top is replaced, then you basically have a new bass with old wood around it.