Talk of Fakes (or Antiqued newer Basses) came up......

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Martin Sheridan

One of the most import ways of identifying an instrument is to know what the genuine label looks like. Brinser did a service by showing us copies of labels from violins he had purchased directly from the makers. So they are both a source of help and a source of tomfoolery. That's also somewhat true with all of the books that have copies of labels, it's just that the Brinser book is the most reliable for 20th centruy Italian makers and they in turn are the ones whose identities are being co opted.

So far as I know, Carol Berzoni (III?) and G. B Guadanini are considered to be the last of the Cremonese makers from the golden period. I'm not sure of the exact period or number of years, but there were no makers in Cremona for a long time. It is believed that the Ceruti were self taught (though their instruments are exceptionally well crafted and designed), and I think there are many sources that say that the direct line of maker to apprentice died out. I've seen two or three dozen 19th and up to mid 20th century Italian violins and they are pretty crude by comparison to the earlier makers. Their work was often haphazard, or we might even say somewhat artistic, but at least they knew the classic design. In the late 19th century and early 20th century there are some real stand outs like the Bisiachs and the Antonazzis but most of them are the also rans. Workmanship and varnish are crude. I know a man who went to the Italian school in Cremona in the early 70s and he said they did not even teach varnishing and knew nothing about how to produce a good varnish. He had to learn it later. He said that the only varnish they made was straight shellac. I worked on a cello made at the school in 1974, this was in 76 or 77 and it was fairly crude and had a butt ugly varnish. Of course since it was "Italian" (by an American) the price paid was astronomical for the time.

Carol Berzoni (III?) and G. B Guadanini?

Who is Carol Berzoni? Do you mean Carlo Bergonzi?

G. B Guadanini? You mean G.B. GuadaGnini, right? By the way, he was NOT from Cremona, sorry. The Gaud. family mainly worked in and around Turin, not Cremona.

Ceruti reportedly learned from Storioni and took over his shop. Storioni is considered to be the last great or traditional Cremona maker but both G.B Ceruti and his son Giuseppe were great in their own right as well. This info I offer only from what I have read. No one I know was alive back then! I have seen a Bass by each of them. Outstanding to say the least.

[Martin Sheridan]

Thanks for the correctins especially on the spellings. I shuda kept my books. Bergonzi mispelling was a typo, Guadagnini a mistake.
I thought Resengard had said Ceruti was self taught. If he learned from Storioni it would certainly explain the quality of both father and son's work.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Martin Sheridan

Thanks for the correctins especially on the spellings. I shuda kept my books. Bergonzi mispelling was a typo, Guadagnini a mistake.
I thought Resengard had said Ceruti was self taught. If he learned from Storioni it would certainly explain the quality of both father and son's work.

First off, was just trying to avoid confusion. With the books, we are all smart.. lol

As far as who learned from whom, we weren't there so we go with the flow until proven wrong. On Martini for instance, most books say he learned from S.Scarampella. One dealer in modern Italian Violins who actually might have been associated with Brinser (sold me my Brinser book as well) said that Martini may have known Scarampella and consulted with him but was NOT his pupil for Violin making. In these days, you hang out in a shop, ask a few questions, go home and try a few things and then tell people you learned from that person. No formal enrollment required, just a different perspective on 'learning from'! In the case of Samuel Gilkes and John Thomas Hart there are documents on record of his apprenticeship contract so there's no mystery there.

[Martin Sheridan]

Sometimes information gets shifted around in the old brain and doesn't come out right later when one wants to make the recollection.

I may have associated Guadagnini with Cremona for erroneous reasons.
A lot of people went through the shop of Nicolo Amati. There is one Stradivari violin from his early period that says "alumnus Nicolo Amati" but there is no other information that I know of that links him directly to the Amati shop. Since he lived in Cremona he may have simply walked to the shop for instruction, there would have been no need for him to have lived there. His early instruments bear a likeness to Nicolo's work, but someone pointed out that he was so talented that he might have just copied one.

The reason I mention this is that I believe there are some Guadagnini instruments that bear the inscription on their label as "alumnus Stradivari". That of course doesn't mean that he was Stradivari's pupil. It may only mean that he was trying to get a few more pesos for his work.
On the other hand a lot of people went through Stradivari's shop who might not have been recorded as having worked there. Some think that Guarneri del Gesu may have worked for Stradivari during the ten year period where we find no instruments made by him.
In the case of Guadagnini we know from Count Cozio de Salabue that he employed him to make instruments for him from the molds and designs of Stradivari that he purchased from Stradivari's son Paolo.

I wonder what Duane Rosengard has had to say about it? I understand that he has a new well researched book on Guadagnini.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Martin Sheridan

Sometimes information gets shifted around in the old brain and doesn't come out right later when one wants to make the recollection.

I may have associated Guadagnini with Cremona for erroneous reasons.
A lot of people went through the shop of Nicolo Amati. There is one Stradivari violin from his early period that says "alumnus Nicolo Amati" but there is no other information that I know of that links him directly to the Amati shop. Since he lived in Cremona he may have simply walked to the shop for instruction, there would have been no need for him to have lived there. His early instruments bear a likeness to Nicolo's work, but someone pointed out that he was so talented that he might have just copied one.

The reason I mention this is that I believe there are some Guadagnini instruments that bear the inscription on their label as "alumnus Stradivari". That of course doesn't mean that he was Stradivari's pupil. It may only mean that he was trying to get a few more pesos for his work.
On the other hand a lot of people went through Stradivari's shop who might not have been recorded as having worked there. Some think that Guarneri del Gesu may have worked for Stradivari during the ten year period where we find no instruments made by him.
In the case of Guadagnini we know from Count Cozio de Salabue that he employed him to make instruments for him from the molds and designs of Stradivari that he purchased from Stradivari's son Paolo.

I wonder what Duane Rosengard has had to say about it? I understand that he has a new well researched book on Guadagnini.

I don't have a copy of that book and it's out of print as well. I would buy one if it came up for sale at a fair price to me.

On the Alumni to Strad, Alessandro Gagliano and his brother G.B., both reportedly worked for him. I did find however a reference for Lorenzo Guadagnini who worked for Strad. Typically the Guad. family worked in Turin as well as Milan and Piacenza and some other places. I guess there is some Strad in at least one member of the family as well as his son who started in Cremona. Many of this family moved around. I just saw a few labels in the Jalovec book that shows a few of the members as alumni to Strad. News to me. Being into Bass mainly I never noticed. My bad, sorry Martin. You were right.

Right now my jaw is a little sore from pulling by foot out of my mouth. I admit that my memory of what I have read was true but my readings were not complete. My sincere apologies.

What does all of this have to do with Basses? Well, very little but some. Basses were made by members of both the Gagliano and Guadagnini families. I have never heard of any of the Basses coming from Cremona though. Giuseppe Guadagnini, the oldest of the family trained with N.Amati so I guess the 'roots' are from Cremona with this family but according to who you read, the association with Strad is 'loose' if at all mentioned.

[Martin Sheridan]

Absolutely no need for an apology. I was clearly wrong. As someone said, there's a reason why erasures are put on pencils.

What did this have to do with basses? You started a very good topic on the eastern European fakes now on the market and then one thing let to another. I get a little bent sometimes when things get off topic and this time I think I'm the one who was responsible. But I think we were talking about the difficult task of identification which led to f-hole placement which led to how the Italians themselves lost the how and why they did things.

I forgot to mention on the f hole placement issue that Sacconi said he didn't think that Stradivari's sons even understood why the old man put them where he did because he was no sooner dead than they started moving them around. I prefer to think that they had been ordered around by the old man for so long that they just wanted to try out some of their own ideas. I can just hear him saying, "put the f holes there because I said too, no ands ifs or buts!"