Help with my String/Bridge Height

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Calvin Marks

Hi all, so I recently had my bridge re-cut since the E string side was far too low...Unfortunately, the problem has not been fixed so I decided to take measurements and see what you all think of this.

Height from belly to the top of the string at bridge:
G - 16 cm
D - 17 cm
A - 17 cm
E - 16.5 cm

Height from end of fingerboard to the very under part of the string:
G - 4 mm
D - 6.5 mm
A - 6 mm
E - 5.5 mm


From reading all the posts on this server it seems that my strings are not consistent in height at all...

I like 4mm for the G, but the 2.5 mm height increase on the D seems like too much of a gap. I also need way more than 5.5 mm on the E string, it seems that it should be at least 7 mm...

I also noticed that the strings aren't exactly IN the grooves at the bridge. The G string fits in nicely, with space due to how thin it is...But the D, A and E are somewhat over the slots.

My nut spacing between strings is perfect at 10 mm, and the height is consistent.

Also, the spacing between the strings at the bridge is consistent at 25 mm.

Your heights under teh fingerboard are way out of whack from anything I've seen or heard of. The G is the lowest and the E the highest with a 1-1.5nn progression on average or 2mm at the most. Up and down doesn't work for playing the Bass and for the tone, you must be overworking there trying to play that bass.

25mm spoacing is tight for a 5-string for bowing. 26-27 is better. For a 4-string orchestra bass, 26mm minimum to about 2 mm is the average, the 26mm being tight. 9-10mm or 3/8" at the nut is fine. Height under the string at the Nut should be a business card above 'zero'.

Sounds like this bass you have is in need of a 'bass player's' set-up. If playing solo only, the 25mm might work but with those heights, I can see now why you have been hunting for strings.

Come here if you can and play some of the basses here known by players as the best set-up group of basses at any shop on average. All of them are my basses and all were done for easy of playing with the bow, fingers, solo, orchestra, jazz etc. combined.

Did you ever read Arnold's set-up measurements here on the Forum? Introduced here.

Numbers are just that, numbers. I don't have the exact set-up numbers on every bass. What I do shoot for is the best set-up for each bass. Fingerboard curve/arch and camber/relief also play a huge factor in my mind. I like my boards a tad less than straight as far as the relief goes.

In my opinion, once you know the best numbers for your bass and playing, the communication with your Luthier will improve. The problem arises sometimes when other things on a bass do not allow the optimum set-up. Neck over stand and fingerboard shape play a role here as well. the straightness of the neck under the fingerboard is at least equally important. The neck reinforced with CF graphite is always a plus for that.

The music on the bass is so hard for our large instrument. Fighting the bass itself with a bad set-up or other inherent problems just takes the fun out of playing, totally.

If the G is 4mm then I would try for 4/5/6/7 (low arch) or 4/5.5/7/8.5 (bigger arch) or something close to 4-8 or so and increase all the numbers if the G is higher. The FB curve must follow the bridge to some degree.

[Arnold Schnitzer]

What Ken said...

[Calvin Marks]

Thank you VERY much for your reply. It seems that I definitely need to get the bridge/fingerboard plained correctly once and for all. I must admit it is a bit of a chore playing in thumb position considering the heights are so out of whack...I also can't really dig into the E string because of how low it is.

I had an audition the other day, and I actually got to the finals but the committee told me to raise my string heights...ha!

It's a bit tough in this city to find a repair person who also plays bass. Most of them are violinists at general music stores.

It seems 4,5,6,7 would be good, now I just need to find someone to do it!

[Arnold Schnitzer]

Calvin, 4mm under your G string is not going to allow you to bow aggressively. Typically, classical players keep the G at about 6mm. Good luck with your set-up, hope you find someone to get it right for you...

[Calvin Marks]

Originally Posted by Arnold Schnitzer

Calvin, 4mm under your G string is not going to allow you to bow aggressively. Typically, classical players keep the G at about 6mm. Good luck with your set-up, hope you find someone to get it right for you...

I like the 4mm on the G cause I'm playing a lot of solo repertoire. In order to win a job you need to play orchestral excerpts and a concerto/solo Bach. I could easily do the excerpts at 6mm+ on the G, but definitely not anything solo related.

If I had a job already I'd set my bass up with G at 7mm, but I don't really have that option.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Calvin Marks

I like the 4mm on the G cause I'm playing a lot of solo repertoire. In order to win a job you need to play orchestral excerpts and a concerto/solo Bach. I could easily do the excerpts at 6mm+ on the G, but definitely not anything solo related.

If I had a job already I'd set my bass up with G at 7mm, but I don't really have that option.

When people try my basses here at 4-5mm, they ask me to raise it for them. My Martini is about 4mm and a tight feeling bass as far as the tension goes. If it was not as tight, 5mm would work better. With Flexocor or BelCantos, 4mm is fine for me but with Evah's, 5mm works better. These being the lowest possible heights for playing softly. For digging in, they need to be higher and my FB camber/curve is nearly flat. My Gilkes (Jilkes) has a bigger camber just due to the wood settling itself in the neck and FB and is usually tight as well. That Bass plays better slightly higher than the Martini. Go figure..

Arnold (above) has worked on both of these basses and has seen many many top pros play on them in his shop. He can go into better detail as far as the various heights here and there vs the playability soft thru heavy playing.

Now, if you just bought some old German shop bass with a long Eb neck and a thinned fingerboard I could understand you having problems due to the bass being out of repair set-up wise but, I am under the impression here that you have a brand new handmade bass. In my opinion, we should not be having this discussion. It is no rocket science to get a bass to play fairly well especially if it just left the makers hands. Did someone mess with the bass since it was made or has been fiddled with over and over by someone else who is not qualified to be doing so?

I have to say that between strings and set-up issues, you have been on at least 2 forums 'hunting' for answers way more than you did about the actual build of the bass before hand.

Please fill us in on how you got to this point and condition of bass IF we are talking about the new one you just had made.

[Calvin Marks]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

When people try my basses here at 4-5mm, they ask me to raise it for them. My Martini is about 4mm and a tight feeling bass as far as the tension goes. If it was not as tight, 5mm would work better. With Flexocor or BelCantos, 4mm is fine for me but with Evah's, 5mm works better. These being the lowest possible heights for playing softly. For digging in, they need to be higher and my FB camber/curve is nearly flat. My Gilkes (Jilkes) has a bigger camber just due to the wood settling itself in the neck and FB and is usually tight as well. That Bass plays better slightly higher than the Martini. Go figure..

Arnold (above) has worked on both of these basses and has seen many many top pros play on them in his shop. He can go into better detail as far as the various heights here and there vs the playability soft thru heavy playing.

Now, if you just bought some old German shop bass with a long Eb neck and a thinned fingerboard I could understand you having problems due to the bass being out of repair set-up wise but, I am under the impression here that you have a brand new handmade bass. In my opinion, we should not be having this discussion. It is no rocket science to get a bass to play fairly well especially if it just left the makers hands. Did someone mess with the bass since it was made or has been fiddled with over and over by someone else who is not qualified to be doing so?

I have to say that between strings and set-up issues, you have been on at least 2 forums 'hunting' for answers way more than you did about the actual build of the bass before hand.

Please fill us in on how you got to this point and condition of bass IF we are talking about the new one you just had made.

Same bass. It came with these string heights from the maker. I also put in about 2 years of research as to what I exactly wanted, and I got that, apart from the fingerboard camber issues. I'm honestly just looking for advice. You guys are used to playing great basses, so all I want are answers.

[Calvin Marks]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

Height under the string at the Nut should be a business card above 'zero'.

Hey Ken, what did you mean by this?
Thanks.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Calvin Marks

Hey Ken, what did you mean by this?
Thanks.

Originally Posted by Ken Smith; Height under the string at the Nut should be a business card above 'zero'.

This means that the Strings at the Nut should just be above the fingerboard a slight amount so pressing down in the lower positions is not excessive work. Playing a Forte open string should be the test. The Bass should not buzz much if at all at the Nut/Fingerboard joint if played fairly hard. Actually, my basses do usually on some strings because I do not set-up the bass for open string playing. Leaving the string high at the nut makes the string height higher up and down the fingerboard when pressing down from the open string. It also adds tension to the string as well.

If the bass has more scoop starting at the Nut then you can almost file the Nut down to the fingerboard itself like I do. On my basses, you can barely slide a piece of paper under the string by the nut. The general ruls is 1 or 2 business cards. Anything more is just extra work playing the bass. I prefer lower but that;'s just me!

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

I played a friends old Kay yesterday and the nut slots were so low I couldn't get a business card within 1/2" of the nut and the bass played great. I wouldn't tempt fate like that, but whadayaknow?

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Greg Clinkingbeard

I played a friends old Kay yesterday and the nut slots were so low I couldn't get a business card within 1/2" of the nut and the bass played great. I wouldn't tempt fate like that, but whadayaknow?

I can't slide a piece of paper under some of mine either and they play like butter. The Camber/fb curve makes up for this.

[Calvin Marks]

Hi all, so I decided to try plaining the bridge myself and am very pleased with the results. It was slightly more labor intensive than I thought it would be, but I suppose that makes sense considering how out of whack the string heights were to begin with.

This process took me 5 hours and I used some 120 grit sandpaper and a few different shaped rat-files.

I raised the adjusters to give me 9 mm on the E and then I began lowering the grooves. Once I got to 5.5/7/8/9 I had to sand off the top of the bridge...Really tiring work.

I decided to go for 5.5 instead of 6 on the G because I needed a bit more clearance from the D string.


Overall, I'm really happy with the results and I have all of you to thank!

[Calvin Marks]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

This means that the Strings at the Nut should just be above the fingerboard a slight amount so pressing down in the lower positions is not excessive work. Playing a Forte open string should be the test. The Bass should not buzz much if at all at the Nut/Fingerboard joint if played fairly hard. Actually, my basses do usually on some strings because I do not set-up the bass for open string playing. Leaving the string high at the nut makes the string height higher up and down the fingerboard when pressing down from the open string. It also adds tension to the string as well.

If the bass has more scoop starting at the Nut then you can almost file the Nut down to the fingerboard itself like I do. On my basses, you can barely slide a piece of paper under the string by the nut. The general ruls is 1 or 2 business cards. Anything more is just extra work playing the bass. I prefer lower but that;'s just me!

Ken, do you need to file the entire nut down in height or can you make a "slope" (ie. angled lower at the edge)?

Thanks.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Calvin Marks

Ken, do you need to file the entire nut down in height or can you make a "slope" (ie. angled lower at the edge)?

Thanks.

I am not sure of your exact question but I will tell you how I file a nut. The strings enter straight in from the fingerboard and are angled back to the tuners or the other way around but one end of the Nut goes to a straight pull and the other an angle. The slot must follow the angle. I use a jewelers rat-tail file. Nicholson's are the easiest for me to fine here but "Swissmade' are as good but impossible to deal with that company.

The string should not be under the surface of the Nut but like the bridge, 1/2 -3/4 the depth of the string diameter. Same diameter rules to be used as on the Bridge, just the other anchor end and different wood. As you file deep, stop and rasp off or file off (depending and using a flat file of sorts) the excess ebony so the slot is not so deep. When all done, sand and polish it carefully and oil up the Nut.

Be careful not to slip with the file and hit the bass with it. Also, wear glasses or safety goggles. If you pull out of the slot quickly while filing fast and jam the file tip into the edge of the Nut missing the slot, the tip of the file can break off and go in your eye. I have had tips hit my face and forehead. I count my blessings.

Now, please do not get my next statement confused with something else.. ok?

I have handled more Nuts in my life than most Double Bass Lutheirs..

You know.. the Nut for the strings.. lol.

In my Electric Bass Business, I have handled over 5,800 in Brass alone. Brass Nuts.. Try them on for size..

The Ebony DB Nuts are easy for me in comparison to cutting Brass. I made a wide stepped Nut of Ebony for my Carl Thompson Electric Bass back in 1973/4 way before I started my business. Carl asked me NOT so Show off my NUT because everyone else will want one. Just one Ebony NUT, what harm can that do?..

So, filing the Nut slots from the FB to the peg box it's at an angle. The Nut shape will follow that pattern or it will be too high over the strings.

I made this temporary Nut the day I bought the Bass. Simple but functional. Note the gentle slope/angle from front to back, fb to peg. It stayed on the Bass till Arnold chopped the Neck off and be-headded the Scroll/Pegbox for its restoration. When it's done, it will have a new Grafted Neck, a C-extension and a new Nut for 3 of the Strings next to the Extension as usual.

[Calvin Marks]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

I am not sure of your exact question but I will tell you how I file a nut. The strings enter straight in from the fingerboard and are angled back to the tuners or the other way around but one end of the Nut goes to a straight pull and the other an angle. The slot must follow the angle. I use a jewelers rat-tail file. Nicholson's are the easiest for me to fine here but "Swissmade' are as good but impossible to deal with that company.

The string should not be under the surface of the Nut but like the bridge, 1/2 -3/4 the depth of the string diameter. Same diameter rules to be used as on the Bridge, just the other anchor end and different wood. As you file deep, stop and rasp off or file off (depending and using a flat file of sorts) the excess ebony so the slot is not so deep. When all done, sand and polish it carefully and oil up the Nut.

Be careful not to slip with the file and hit the bass with it. Also, wear glasses or safety goggles. If you pull out of the slot quickly while filing fast and jam the file tip into the edge of the Nut missing the slot, the tip of the file can break off and go in your eye. I have had tips hit my face and forehead. I count my blessings.

Now, please do not get my next statement confused with something else.. ok?

I have handled more Nuts in my life than most Double Bass Lutheirs..

You know.. the Nut for the strings.. lol.

In my Electric Bass Business, I have handled over 5,800 in Brass alone. Brass Nuts.. Try them on for size..

The Ebony DB Nuts are easy for me in comparison to cutting Brass. I made a wide stepped Nut of Ebony for my Carl Thompson Electric Bass back in 1973/4 way before I started my business. Carl asked me NOT so Show off my NUT because everyone else will want one. Just one Ebony NUT, what harm can that do?..

So, filing the Nut slots from the FB to the peg box it's at an angle. The Nut shape will follow that pattern or it will be too high over the strings.

I made this temporary Nut the day I bought the Bass. Simple but functional. Note the gentle slope/angle from front to back, fb to peg. It stayed on the Bass till Arnold chopped the Neck off and be-headded the Scroll/Pegbox for its restoration. When it's done, it will have a new Grafted Neck, a C-extension and a new Nut for 3 of the Strings next to the Extension as usual.

Thank you VERY much.