Upton Basses

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

I agree that the Mittels are great on the Upton, but I prefer the Obligatos. They feel a lot nicer to me, although I do think the Mittels may have a bit more punch. Different strokes.

[David Powell]

If this is out of line, just can it. I don't have any problem with that. I think Upton's might be a little obscure about their sources because of how easy it would be for customers to deal directly with Romanian suppliers. And you can deal with them for about half the price of dealing with Upton. Factory Romanian instruments almost all come from one city. Up until the dissolution of the USSR, they were all built under one roof, now known as the Hora company. There have always been a few independent makers, but the more recent of these, like Gliga, were trained at the state factory in Reghin. So it stands to reason that any instrument coming from Romania, particularly lower price point instruments, is being built by similar methods, if not under the same roof. Buyers of instruments in quantity can probably specify a few small differences, like for instance an Upton Hawkes recently was shown with no notches in the f-holes (Of course that might have been oversight also). Also insturments can be purchased "in the white" and Upton does this so that they can add their own finish. Also they perform the service of setting up the bass.

By and large though, without exclusive contracts, Hora will supply to anyone waving cash. I actually pondered buying a whole shipping container full of Romanian instruments. If you know how to varnish violins and do the set-up and repair work, the import supplier is a no brainer. So it really comes down to the value of the service of the retailer / importer. Lots of violins and basses come out of Romania. Not all are created equally, but they can't be too far apart at entry level prices.

Also if we consider DB's in the white to be a commodity, Uptons can change it's supplier if the supplier is not well known. Suddenly the Hawkes could be made in Czech Republic, or anywhere else.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by David Powell

If this is out of line, just can it. I don't have any problem with that. I think Upton's might be a little obscure about their sources because of how easy it would be for customers to deal directly with Romanian suppliers. And you can deal with them for about half the price of dealing with Upton. Factory Romanian instruments almost all come from one city. Up until the dissolution of the USSR, they were all built under one roof, now known as the Hora company. There have always been a few independent makers, but the more recent of these, like Gliga, were trained at the state factory in Reghin. So it stands to reason that any instrument coming from Romania, particularly lower price point instruments, is being built by similar methods, if not under the same roof. Buyers of instruments in quantity can probably specify a few small differences, like for instance an Upton Hawkes recently was shown with no notches in the f-holes (Of course that might have been oversight also). Also insturments can be purchased "in the white" and Upton does this so that they can add their own finish. Also they perform the service of setting up the bass.

By and large though, without exclusive contracts, Hora will supply to anyone waving cash. I actually pondered buying a whole shipping container full of Romanian instruments. If you know how to varnish violins and do the set-up and repair work, the import supplier is a no brainer. So it really comes down to the value of the service of the retailer / importer. Lots of violins and basses come out of Romania. Not all are created equally, but they can't be too far apart at entry level prices.

Also if we consider DB's in the white to be a commodity, Uptons can change it's supplier if the supplier is not well known. Suddenly the Hawkes could be made in Czech Republic, or anywhere else.

David, you always come up with this theory stuff. The price of the Raw un-varnished Bass is less than the work to be performed here once it arrives.

I suggest you buy your container of Basses and let us know how you do. It is easy to say these things but planing a FB and cutting a Bridge is not for the novice by any means.

I have some Basses coming in soon from the Gliga factory via JR Music. A Plywood Corsini style and a Hybrid Panormo (aka Hawkes) model but Varnished by the Calin Wultur shop. The Hybrid is Plywood back only with solid bent Maple Ribs.

Gliga and Wultur have ther own shops. It doesn't matter where they were trained. Also, I don't think everything from one country is exactly the same and that goes for Romania, Hungary, China Germany, Italy etc.

What matters is the final product, workmanship inside and out, materials and the final tonal musical results.

I will post pics in a month or so after they come in and I do the basic set-up. I will be fitting the Bridge (no adjusters), setting the Post and adjusting the playability and I advertise 'Basic set-up' only. I have my reasons for this and have been successful with it. I have heard too many stories or people changing Bridges, adjusters, Tail pieces, strings, end pins, and more to want to be part of that club. This way, I sell it playable and the customer can pick his favorite guy and not have to pay for it twice.

When you deal with the Likes of Arnold, Jeff or Nick it usually only needs to be done once. I have most of my personal work done by Arnold and then some by Jeff as he is available so you can take my word for it. Find the best guy for the Job, do it only once and avoid paying double.

I get offers from time to time for Instruments direct from Shops and usually look and then keep walking. It is a tough business to be in and I respect those doing it successfully.

David, this was a good topic to bring up. Would you buy an Upton and then take it to Arnold for his Bridge, Graphite Rods and new fingerboard adding almost 100% more to the cost or... Just buy from the guy who's work you like most?

I was going thru this same set-up thing myself a few months ago with my Mystery Bass. Biase is doing the work but now I like how Arnold has done a few Basses for me in the last couple of years. I was going to have Paul do the neck Graft, then take it to Arnold for Graphite rods and then back to Biase for the FB and completion. With the Bridge I was going to have it made Blank and then have Arnold put his adjusters in it.

THEN, I looked at My Gilkes Bridge cut by Biase in 1982 still good except the Neck was moved out and needed a taller Bridge AND my Martini has a Biase Bridge from 3 Years ago and looks and works fine..

Then I thought, no way!! Biase does and has done just fine for me since 1975 or so and just because Arnold has some new Hip stuff, there is no reason to take and split the Job from a veteran like Biase and maybe muddy up the waters relationship wise.

I called Biase and apologized for even thinking of doing that and told him I want his work all the way on that Bass as that was why I gave him the Job in the first place.

Ah.. did I go off topic here?

[Ron Lacey]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

What matters is the final product, workmanship inside and out, materials and the final tonal musical results.

I just got back from a 2,000 mile road trip and having lots of time to think I came to the same conclusion. It's not relevant where shop XX gets the raw material, it's the final product that matters and if they're willing to stand behind it, that's what counts.

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

Ah.. did I go off topic here?

Probably, but it's your sandbox . It was a good point just the same. You're fortunate to have a selection of great luthiers to patronize. Out here in the wild west, there's one guy locally - a retired orchestra teacher who did a fine job on a setup on a violin for me a few years ago, but I don't know how his work is on a bass. He might be great, but for my first bass I wasn't prepared to take the risk. Now that I have some idea of what a decent setup should feel and sound like, I might give him a try on a second bass, if I could figure out how to hide a second bass from my wife

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Ron Lacey

You're fortunate to have a selection of great luthiers to patronize. Out here in the wild west, there's one guy locally - a retired orchestra teacher who did a fine job on a setup on a violin for me a few years ago, but I don't know how his work is on a bass. He might be great, but for my first bass I wasn't prepared to take the risk. Now that I have some idea of what a decent setup should feel and sound like, I might give him a try on a second bass, if I could figure out how to hide a second bass from my wife

I would like to hear from Arnold who is not only a player but one of the top Bass Luthiers in the country if not the world. Maybe there are 50-100 guys world wide who do his level of work and maybe only 5-10% can do better. Maybe it would be nice to make a list to see how many are out there BUT they must be at the level to restore old Classic Basses with good proven results.

On the Arnold thing, he has trained two other Luthiers that I know of. One is Zach Martin and the other is Jed Kriegel who works in the shop currently. Jed does great work as I have seen this for myself. Being 20+ years younger than Arnold, we will be looking to him in the future like some New Yorkers now see Gage and Merchant instead of Traeger who trained them decades ago. The trade must be passed on and on.

If your local guy does good set-ups, there is no guarantee he can do good restorations. That's like saying a person can patch a cut on the finger but can he do surgery on your Heart or Brain. In the Medical field they have specialists for every organ of your Body. In Bass restoration, although not as life threatening as medicine, you have one Restorer for everything. It's good to have someone who knows just about everything and who knows your Bass as your Doctor may know your body, hopefully.

[Ron Lacey]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

If your local guy does good set-ups, there is no guarantee he can do good restorations.

I've never had a bass restored but after reading about the work you've had done, I totally agree. It appears to take both the skill to do the physical work, which looks to be at least a level or two beyond basic setup work, and more importantly, a deep knowledge of the instrument to know what is appropriate to do and what is not.

My local guy may have been fine for setup but the fact that the shop where he works had mostly 1/2 size basses, and the two 3/4 size basses on hand were way overpriced, made me reluctant. They mostly cater to the local school band and orchestra programs. I sure wouldn't take him a restoration without seeing examples of his work. To be fair, I haven't asked him to do any work on my bass and based on his reputation I'd expect him to be up front about what he thinks he can or can't do.

I'd be interested in Arnold's and Jeff's take on how to evaluate a luthier before committing to one; either for setup or restoration. Getting recommendations via internet discussion groups seems to work only for big cities and even those are sometimes scarce.

Now -- that's off topic . Feel free to move some of this over to the Lutherie section since it's independent of the seller of the bass.

[Jeff Gellis]

I have had the opportunity to compare my Upton Hawkes Hybrid to my teacher's 200 year old German carved bass. I started studying with Bassist extraordinaire, Mike Richmond. He played both basses and this is what I heard. FWIW

ARCO
200 year old German Bass - Very mellow top end, there was no lack of top end but it was very easy on the ears. Scooped mid range. That is, has a quality to the mid range that colors the sound in pronounced way. I would describe it as a distinct and unique voice for a double bass. Tight and full lowend. This bass disperses it's sound in a way that surrounds you. You get directionality from the mids and highs but the low end surrounds you, if that makes any sense.

Dec. 2006 Upton Hawkes Hybrid - 20% louder than the fully carved vintage bass, top end was very pronounced. Not obnoxious but not mellow. Midrange and bottom were pretty well balanced but without a distinct complexity or distinct personality. It sounds like a very good bass but not one that you would instantly be able to identify as having a completely identifiable character. This bass disperses it's sound very directionally.

Pizz.
200 year old German Carved Bass - tons of growl- holy cow. Great warm bottom. Midrange uniqueness less prevalent in pizzicato playing.

Dec. 2006 Upton Hawkes Hybrid - once again, substantially louder. More punch in the low end. I assume that's a function of the loudness difference. Brighter than the German Bass.

Conclusion
In the hands of Mike Richmond, that carved German bass sounds rediculously good. The distinct and complex character of the sound make listening to it a joy.
The Upton sounded very good. I mean very good. Not complex but still very musical and pleasing.
I guess a Beaujolais Noveau vs a fine red at it's prime would be the best comparison I can come up with. Certainly, not junk by any account and I will be able to grow musically with this bass.