bass bar types ?

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Adrian Levi

I guess in my mind a museum grade bass would be one made by one of the masters ie a Panormo / you'd know the names a lot better than me. I may be wrong but I did read somewhere that some Panormo basses had integral bars.

After 200 years and more I doubt there are enough basses still in original condition to come up with that conclusion. Panormo is noted for the high arching, angled back and 6mm thicknessing around the Top (or maybe the back as well) without the normal variation in graduations.

I think Basses without 'real' Bars were done either out of laziness, cheapness or ignorance. Maybe some early instruments as well before the knowledge of bass making was fully developed but a great maker like Panormo putting out basses with his known reputation didn't have a bassbar? News to me!

[Adrian Levi]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

After 200 years and more I doubt there are enough basses still in original condition to come up with that conclusion. Panormo is noted for the high arching, angled back and 6mm thicknessing around the Top (or maybe the back as well) without the normal variation in graduations.

I think Basses without 'real' Bars were done either out of laziness, cheapness or ignorance. Maybe some early instruments as well before the knowledge of bass making was fully developed but a great maker like Panormo putting out basses with his known reputation didn't have a bassbar? News to me!

Perhaps Shecky Green knows something about Panormo's without bass bars

[Matthew Tucker]

Ken, having carved a few tops now, I can't work out how an integral bass bar would be any less work than a "normal" bass bar. It would make graduating the top much harder,and it would be difficult to carve neatly, unless you are using a CNC machine, which those old guys were not. So I can't really see how cheapness, laziness or ignorance had anything to do with it.

As far as "museum" grade bass is concerned, I would say it should definitely be left original, because conservation is the purpose of a museum. However, if it's designed to be regularly played, then its not a Museum" grade instrument, and if the bass bar needs replacing, replace it.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Matthew Tucker

Ken, having carved a few tops now, I can't work out how an integral bass bar would be any less work than a "normal" bass bar. It would make graduating the top much harder,and it would be difficult to carve neatly, unless you are using a CNC machine, which those old guys were not. So I can't really see how cheapness, laziness or ignorance had anything to do with it.

As far as "museum" grade bass is concerned, I would say it should definitely be left original, because conservation is the purpose of a museum. However, if it's designed to be regularly played, then its not a Museum" grade instrument, and if the bass bar needs replacing, replace it.

Where to start.. I don't agree here with you, sorry.

There were other kinds of carving machines back then. The integral bar wood left in was not so neatly carved. The graduations often way over normal specs. Basses like the ones labeled Morelli and Pfretzschner made nearly 100 years ago had Top and Back plates carved by a machine of some sort.

Back around 1978 I took the top off an old German or Tirol style Bass. I spent no less than 8 full hours carving that out and replacing it with a real Bar. I was a busy working musician then in the NY studios and in my down time, I fiddled with basses, inside and out. That was my only Bassbar job and the chalk fit was as good as the eye could see. Carving by machine and leaving a chunk of wood in there doesn't take 8 hours!

I think on the Museum 'Quality' Basses, that phrase to me doesn't mean it's IN a Museum. Most basses in Museums would need a full restoration and modernization with the proper fittings to go back in to service.

I own and have owned many basses in this class. I have seen them worked on and modified to all degrees you can imagine. In every single case, the bass met the modern needs and to do what it was intended to do, be played!

Basses fall apart in Museums. The more they are left alone, the more it will take to fix them. Putting in a REAL Bar if it doesn't have one even IF to be put back in its cage will help it live better and longer under string tension.

Just my opinion and experience talking here. I would also like to mention than in that period that was the only bass that needed a Bar. I would have done more if needed. I did many top cracks, cross bars and a few plates on and off. Maybe 20-30 basses passed thru me then or so, I can't remember. It was a part time hobby and no one complained about my work back then either. I had one main bass for 15 years and it only needed strings on occassion. I glued one corner on it and put some glue in a rib crack opening in the 15 years besides bridge set-up work. I did only the jobs that the basses needed that I bought and sold then.

[Matthew Tucker]

Ok fair enough, so would you say that integral bars only ever appear in quickly-made cheap basses, and that the master makers never used integral bars?

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Matthew Tucker

Ok fair enough, so would you say that integral bars only ever appear in quickly-made cheap basses, and that the master makers never used integral bars?

No, I am not saying that. I am saying that if there is an Integral Bar even in a Strad, change it!

I have seen only one Italian Bass with an integral Bar but was not a famous maker. The corner blocks were small 1" sized pieces upper and lower in each joint and not top to back connecting the plates. Obviously a 'quicky' mentality.

It is rare today to find old instruments in their original state. Once opened for repair, a 'good' and sensible Luthier usually 'corrects' these short comings.

Show me a master grade instrument with an integral Bar, please!

[Adrian Levi]

I have another question that I want to throw out there about bass bars .

Surely a bass bar with the least amount of mass possible ( ie the smallest dimensions possible ) would be a 'better sounding' bar. Obviously a bar has to provide the optimal support for a top and so it has to have some mass , but luthiers are often talking about adding as few cleats as possible to cracks as not to add too much extra mass to the top ,in order to let the top vibrate to its full potential....