Spirocore Starks

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Eddue Johnson

After a long process to find the right strings for my Phretzner bass I am very happy with my choice of Thomastik Dominants, tuned down a whole step with higher than normal string height. I play a mixture of acoustic versions of R&B, country, easy listening , rock and pop standards from the 1930's-90's in my current gig as half a duo with a singer guitarist.

I recently got a great deal on a set of Spirocore Starks and want to put them on a different bass for a different sound, a decent imported carved 3/4 size with a thick top. I want to be able to play without amplification on some gigs, with a piano and vocals, possibly a horn or guitar. But it will be used for not just playing jazz but want to do a lot more bowing in the near future.

Even though I am not an orchestra bassist I thought this might be the best place to inquire about using Spiro Starks as an arco string. This set will also be tuned down a whole step, not the norm I know but it works well for me.

So, anyone here have any experience bowing a bass with a full set of Spiro starks or other heavy gauge string. I have a lot of work to do when it comes to bowing so just looking for some insight. It seems like playing softer might be more difficult than louder playing and not sure how easy it will be to get and control a good arco sound with the heavier gauge.

When it comes to heavy bass arco strings, especially Spiro Starks, what things should I consider. And how long does it take for new Starks to settle in.

Any Stark string requires more pressure with the bow. The Original Flexocor(dark blue) are at least as heavy if not more as the Flex 92 Starks(dark red). Years ago I bowed on regular Spiros. It was ok from bowing but it depended on the bass. If they sound bright or scratchy on your bass, then it's not for that bass, period. I can only Imagine that Stark Spiro reds will be even harder to Bow on. I don't know anyone who uses them, the Starks I mean. Perhaps there are some European players that do. I think you can add two other strings that are on the heavy side. They bow well but sound depends again on the individual bass. They are the Belcanto's and the Original Flat Chromes. The Bel's have a bigger E/C extension string than the regula E is or was. I haven't tried the regular set in over a year. Also, why are you tuning down a step?

[Eddue Johnson]

Thanks for the input, Ken.

I also thought that Starks would be harder to bow on, that's why I posted to see if anyone really uses them for arco. I also considered the Bel Cantos which I knew they would be easier to bow but I chose the Starks because I wanted to work on my arco technique and thought the Bels would be too forgiving and wouldn't bring out the flaws in my playing like Spiros would.

As for my tuning, when first playing the Dominants I bought a used set to try out and being aware of the stories of Dominants having issues with breakage I tuned the strings very slowly. I thought that the low D had a great tone and feel. This was also the same time I was considering to try a fifths tuning so I was open to the idea of different tunings.Tuning the bass in fourths (DGCF) gave the Pfretzner a completely different character and the 2 extra low notes as well the fingered E seem to fit very well with my style of playing. Although I now had to relearn some of the hand positions in relationship to the lower notes it felt very natural and comfortable. And since I am not a soloist, I don't miss the loss of the higher notes in thumb position. This tuning is also why I wanted to try the Starks. I wanted to be able to tune down a whole step and still have enough string tension to play unamplified.

I am not sure that this carved bass will turn out as well as the Pfretzner but I would like to keep the tuning but have a different sound. I don't see as much of a problem playing pizz but I often wonder why it is so rare to hear arco played on heavy gauge strings?

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Eddue Johnson

Thanks for the input, Ken.I am not sure that this carved bass will turn out as well as the Pfretzner but I would like to keep the tuning but have a different sound. I don't see as much of a problem playing pizz but I often wonder why it is so rare to hear arco played on heavy gauge strings?

Why? Yes, why, why bother? Who needs Stark if you don't actually need them? They put more pressure on the Top of the Bass and can choke the sound and they are also harder to play on. I have used Stark Flexocor's on some basses IF the Bass needs that string. In that case, I do the extra work to play them. If not, you are also hurting the Bass as well instead of just yourself..

Try playing in an Orchestra with that tuning. When you have to jump up you will be jumping more than the others. When you have modern music with harmonics to play, you will be out of a job unless you play uniform and in unison with the section.

I think 4ths with a C-Extension is the most common world wide now. 5-string basses I believe are outnumbered by C-Extensions. As for tuning in 5ths, that was tried 150 years ago and the conductors preferred the intonation of the players in 4ths, so I've read.

The 5er has its place with some music and some advantages on occasion. The 4 with Ext. is less strings to have in your way when not using them. Only a few notes become the struggle unless, you play 5s on a regular basis. In 5ths, seems like an excuse not to play a 5er or Ext. and you always have to travel or stretch further for everything you play.

In USA the majority is 4 string in 4ths and with C-Ext. for Orchestra for the lows. Go with the flow.. Also, it's easier to play the Ext. notes sitting than standing in some pieces. Most do!

[Eddue Johnson]

You bring up a few points I haven't thought of. If I was playing in an orchestra there would probably be more reasons why it wouldn't work than why it would. I may find out it will be too much work once the bass is set up and tuned, I will know a little more this week when it's all done. It is the thick carved top that I think it can handle the Starks. Whether I can handle them may be a different story! This bass sounds good with most strings I have tried but always seems to be capable of a bigger and better sound. With the other factors involved, 4/4 string on a 3/4 scale bass, tuned down a whole step and as of yet unknown string height, I can't be sure of the actual tension to the top of the bass or the effort required of the left hand.

And even if all that works for me, there's still the issue of bowing Starks. If it can be done on this bass, and can I do it?

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Eddue Johnson

You bring up a few points I haven't thought of. If I was playing in an orchestra there would probably be more reasons why it wouldn't work than why it would. I may find out it will be too much work once the bass is set up and tuned, I will know a little more this week when it's all done. It is the thick carved top that I think it can handle the Starks. Whether I can handle them may be a different story! This bass sounds good with most strings I have tried but always seems to be capable of a bigger and better sound. With the other factors involved, 4/4 string on a 3/4 scale bass, tuned down a whole step and as of yet unknown string height, I can't be sure of the actual tension to the top of the bass or the effort required of the left hand.

And even if all that works for me, there's still the issue of bowing Starks. If it can be done on this bass, and can I do it?

Too much thinking. Time would be better spent on practicing. I put a string on the bass and leave it there unless it's not working. When the strings are shot, I get the same again or try something else maybe. Sometimes I go back to the original set. I don't make a life out of it, just what it takes. Want heavy strings to bow on at Orchestra Pitch? Get Orig. Flex or 92s Stark. They will be easier to Bow than Spiros but still give you a workout. Need a bigger workout? Try push-ups and Sit-ups..

[Eddue Johnson]

All points well taken.

I just happen to come across a great deal on new Starks and thought it would be worth a try, since I wasn't happy with previous strings used. I was hoping to get some insight on bowing heavy gauge that might help during setup, like string height and spacing at the nut and bridge, changing the arch of the bridge, soundpost placement and if any adjustments should be considered with the bigger string relating to bowing.

[Eddue Johnson]

Just finished putting on the Spiro Starks. I just did my usual setup for a jazz bass, after prepping the nut and bridge for the larger strings. Things came together better than i expected. Right away I was happy with the sound and feel, very easy to play everywhere on the fingerboard and plenty of volume. Playing outside on my deck I could hear every note clearly and the sound seemed to carry well but I can never tell how loud my bass is while I am playing. I have always like the sound of Spiros on a jazz bass but don't want to have too much of the buzzing, (mwah) sound that I hear too often. Now I have that Spiro jazz vibe with just the right amount of mwah. If I just wanted a jazz bass, this might be it.

But how well will it work for arco? I was tempted to try it but keep my bow at a distance. I spent a couple of hours just playing jazz pizzicato. Scales, appregios, walking bass lines, Can't believe how well this bass plays, just hope it stays this way. I just wanted to take some time to enjoy things as they are for now.

Tomorrow I will try the bow.


P.S. Ken Smith

I appreciate your input today and the benefit of your knowledge and experience. So far the Starks seem very easy for me to play. Maybe because I played the Dominants so long or the jazz setup with lower string height but I find these strings as comfortable as the Dominants. I have adjusters in the bridge so I will let you know If I feel the same way when I set it up for arco playing. Maybe then I will feel differently about things but right now things seem to be working out.

But it's just the beginning...


Eddue

[Eddue Johnson]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

Too much thinking. Time would be better spent on practicing. I put a string on the bass and leave it there unless it's not working. When the strings are shot, I get the same again or try something else maybe. Sometimes I go back to the original set. I don't make a life out of it, just what it takes.

This post proved to exactly what I needed to do. After re-reading it, I think it might be just the right response to 90% of the questions asked on this and other bass forums. I think it also applies to pickups, amps, bows and most other types of equipment, just use them until they don't work for you. I still think there are differences in the way that orchestra bassists and jazz bassists play their instruments but need to spend more time practicing than thinking about it!

Thanks again Ken

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Eddue Johnson

This post proved to exactly what I needed to do. After re-reading it, I think it might be just the right response to 90% of the questions asked on this and other bass forums. I think it also applies to pickups, amps, bows and most other types of equipment, just use them until they don't work for you. I still think there are differences in the way that orchestra bassists and jazz bassists play their instruments but need to spend more time practicing than thinking about it!

Thanks again Ken

On the same bass, two good players will disagree on what strings sound good. Same with food and taste. What I like and how, you may not.