9-1-1, 9-1-1, 9-1-1, Luthier on the loose..

[Matthew Tucker]

Ken you are - for good reason - condemning cutting a scroll to install an extension. But what about drilling the scroll to allow the C string through? That's removing original wood as well. You could say it's easy to plug a hole, but then, its not that complicated to restore a cut scroll either. There are ways to route the C string past the turns of the scroll and into the top of the pegbox. Not as elegant but it can be done.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Matthew Tucker

Ken you are - for good reason - condemning cutting a scroll to install an extension. But what about drilling the scroll to allow the C string through? That's removing original wood as well. You could say it's easy to plug a hole, but then, its not that complicated to restore a cut scroll either. There are ways to route the C string past the turns of the scroll and into the top of the pegbox. Not as elegant but it can be done.

Yes Matt, you heard me right. The Hole is ok and works best. The cutting of the Scroll is a huge sin in my book. Many basses have holes already that wont work for the next extension. They get plugged and the next one drilled. I have bought many basses like that. The only bass I bought with the scroll cut was the Guitar model bass. That has a sound to die for. When it's all fixed, the repair will show only a little. The reason it was cut to begin with was because of a faulty angle scroll graft. I know who did what on that bass as well. The bass I walked away from was a nice bass but nothing like this one. I even played it in concert a few times with the cut there but it bothered me to no end. Now it is fixed and in its new neck already awaiting its mounting to the restored bass. That will happen before long. The Top is almost done and will be glued back on soon. Then the Back comes off and we are in the home stretch.

[Matthew Tucker]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

Many basses have holes already that wont work for the next extension. They get plugged and the next one drilled.

That's why i'm putting it to you that drilling a hole is NOT really OK in a master bass, any more than cutting the scroll is. A scroll full of plugged holes me no like!

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Matthew Tucker

That's why i'm putting it to you that drilling a hole is NOT really OK in a master bass, any more than cutting the scroll is. A scroll full of plugged holes me no like!

Oh, ok. Put it to me.. lol

The String through the Scroll is normal and accepted. The chopping off of the Head is not.

I was going to run the string around on the first Ext. that Arnold made for me. In that case the Ext. would have needed a screw into the Head to hold it in place as the sideways pull around the volute would be fighting it.

Ask Arnold who has made dozens of Extensions and worked on 100s of Basses with them on already as well. I think his opinion works for me. I don't know any Luthiers more caring than him about the health and the value preserve of old basses.

I can't force you or anyone else to do things my way unless I am the one paying the bill. These are my views.

[Dave Martin]

Ken, I gather from reading your posts on the subject of provenance that there is a certain amount of guesswork involved even among experts; I seem to remember that you've bought basses thinking they were from one maker and later changed your mind - after further research, study and reflection. And do you know (or strongly suspect) of any dealers who have changed the provenance in a willful attempt to defraud rather than simply having an option that maybe wrong?

And while I'm thinking about it, have you considered going public and naming those dealers who you can prove have replaced labels or altered the provenance of instruments specifically to increase the price in the manner you've described?

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Dave Martin

Ken, I gather from reading your posts on the subject of provenance that there is a certain amount of guesswork involved even among experts; I seem to remember that you've bought basses thinking they were from one maker and later changed your mind - after further research, study and reflection. And do you know (or strongly suspect) of any dealers who have changed the provenance in a willful attempt to defraud rather than simply having an option that maybe wrong?

And while I'm thinking about it, have you considered going public and naming those dealers who you can prove have replaced labels or altered the provenance of instruments specifically to increase the price in the manner you've described?

Touchy questions. Yes to about everything but I wont name names here in public. If I have a problem, I will handle it as I have in the past.

One Bass I brought in from Europe had an Italian label and was sold as such to me. I came back to the seller with information that disproved the origin. The dealer offered a full refund less shipping or adjust the price to something fair for what the bass actually was. I keep the bass, got a partial refund, had some work done on it and sold it for a fair price to a very happy customer. The selling price after all the repairs was still only about 2/3rds of what my original cost was un-repaired so you can imagine how good it was to find out what I didn't have and handle the problem.

Many basses are sold with names and labels that don't belong there and the dealer, unless a beginner in the field knows very well what he's doing. That is one of the ways to make money. Up the pedigree and the price along with it.

As far as changing ones mind, that doesn't happen that often but it's the most honest thing a dealer or seller can do. My Hart was a Fendt when I bought it. My Guitar bass was a Storioni when I bought it. My Dodd was a Betts when I bought it. None of those name changes however affected the price. They are still at least as valuable if not more. The Bass I bought in 1973 with a Rivolta lable now has a Rogeri label in it from last I heard. Now, I am all for changing attributions when new information is discovered but how in the world did that Rivolta label grow into a Rogeri label? .. Dealer tampering!

With some old basses that are nothing normal from what we usually see, they are often called Italian. Why? Maybe it's Dutch, German, Spanish, Hungarian or whatever. Not every odd looking old bass is Italian. Maybe most are not but the word 'Italian' jacks up the price. I have seen many basses that to me were German and were sold as Italian. Many old English basses have in the past sold as Italian and quite a few of the nicer German basses are often sold as French, Italian or English as well. It's a mess.

Maybe if all basses were branded inside the Back originally like the serial number on a Gun or a Vin number on a Car, less 'hanky panky' would be going on. If the Brand is missing, then suspect a Fraud in one way or another. Unfortunately this is just wishful thinking..

[Dave Martin]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

Touchy questions. Yes to about everything but I wont name names here in public. If I have a problem, I will handle it as I have in the past.

As far as changing ones mind, that doesn't happen that often but it's the most honest thing a dealer or seller can do. My Hart was a Fendt when I bought it. My Guitar bass was a Storioni when I bought it. My Dodd was a Betts when I bought it. None of those name changes however affected the price. They are still at least as valuable if not more. The Bass I bought in 1973 with a Rivolta lable now has a Rogeri label in it from last I heard. Now, I am all for changing attributions when new information is discovered but how in the world did that Rivolta label grow into a Rogeri label? .. Dealer tampering!

Those name changes were what I remembered reading about; thank you for the clarification. Like you, I don't understand how a bass could grow a new label, though as a point of reference, my early 60's Juzek (the date is a best guess from the old Bass Viol Shop in Cincinnatti) has a label that appears to be a Xerox (or whatever they had before 'real' copiers). Perhaps the distributor in New York was out of paper labels the day mine came through...