Where are they??

[Ken Smith]

I picked up my old Mittenwalder about a month ago from Jeff Bollbach with its new chromatic C-Extension. He also tightened up a few other things around the bass and the sound is quite impressive. The E string shakes the floor and it's not a huge bass, just a large 3/4 or small 7/8. I think the Birdseye maple back and ribs has something to do with the low end being so deep and powerful.

As soon as my son Mike can get into the shop and take some new pics I will be able to show the beautiful C-Extension he just made for it.

The shoulders and back design are quite a comfortable combination to get around as well.

I can only imagine now why we don't see more of these basses over here in America. The Europeans are holding on to them! Why? Because they work!!

[Ken Smith]

Ok, follow me here on this. I looked thru the ranks of the known 19th century makers of Mittenwald to identify the possible maker/shop of my Bass. Looking at dates alone, the mostly likely person was Ludwig Neuner or his firm that he took over in 1867, Neuner-Hornsteiner. These were my thoughts about a year ago.

There is little doubt that this is a Mittenwald production but the design is quite different from the average domestic product from this area.

I recently had my Georges Mougenot Bass restored and while comparing the FFs of both Basses side by side I noticed they were almost exactly the same. The Mittenwald being slightly longer but the all the curves as well as the eyes and tabs looked to be from the same pattern. Mougenot having worked with N.F. Vuillaume had access to the Vuillaume patterns as N.F. worked with and made Basses for his brother J.B. Vuillaume before moving to Brussels. This explains the Vuillaume FFs on the Mougenot. Ludwig Neuner, although trained by his father originally, had gone to Paris and worked for 6-7 years with Vuillaume. He also traveled to London briefly as well. This Bass has the Vuillaume FFs and an English Gamba style outline and Back bend. It is for these reasons that I make this attribution, as Ludwig Neuner is the only German of that period that worked and traveled to both France and England. The Bass is totally a Mittenwald production but shows also the Vuillaume FFs with the English Gamba pattern which is a modified German model so it's a full circle. The English copied the Germans and then the Germans copied the English with some French added which was taken from the Italians to begin with!

Reading more on Ludwig Neuner is also mention of having worked briefly in Vienna with the celebrated maker Gabriel Lembock. Ludwig Streicher played a Bass by Lembock. Vieneese Basses are well known for their friendly sloped shoulders over modest width bouts, unlike the slender Pear shaped Basses made in France and Germany of the late 19th century but rather fairly full dimensioned Basses with politely sloped shoulders.

So, putting the period of the Bass at about 1860 or so, Mittenwald in make, English style Back bend and lower Bout width, Vienna style upper Bout slope and Vuillaume pattern Strad model FFs, who is the most likely suspect? ... Ludwig Neuner!

"Attributed to" is an opinion rather than a proven fact, but I did my research and these are the results.

[Ken Smith]

I just read this on line so I thought it would be good to share. His name is quite famous but where he came from and what he did prior to earn his reputation is different depending on the author. This paragraph is on line at ricercare.com but is copied from the Henley book and is the most comprehensive information I have seen to date on him. Reading also from Jalovec makes the information on Neuner unanimous.

"NEUNER, LUDWIG
Most brilliant representative of the family. Born at Mittenwald, 1840. Trained in the workshop of his father Johann; worked with Andreas Engleder at Munich, also studied ’cello playing with Werner at the Conservatorium. Proceeded to Vienna where he was assistant to Gabriel Lembock; then spent six years under the guidance of J. B. Vuillaume at Paris; also continued his ’cello studies by taking lessons from Franchomme. The cleverness of his subsequent work must be entirely attributable to the impressions gathered from the masterpieces continually passing through the hands of the eminent Frenchman. Worked a few months in London; opened an establishment at Berlin, 1867; worked there with two workmen until 1883. Death of brother and father necessitated his return to Mittenwald, where he took over the control of “Neuner and Hornsteiner”. Had branch premises and workmen at Berlin and Innsbruck. Appointed maker to the Bavarian Royal Family. Recipient of various medals at Exhibitions throughout the world. Died 1897, after organising the firm in such a manner that 200 men were daily employed in coping with large orders from every country. An accomplished man, cultured conversationalist, etc. who could proudly boast of any acquaintance with Kaiser Wilhelm, Prince Leopold, and many of the celebrated virtuosi and composers of his country. Spent the last few years of life endeavouring to solve the secret of the varnish of the old Cremona masters. The firm produced all grades of stringed instruments from ten shillings upwards. “Solo Violins” and “Solo ’Cellos” were the personal work of Ludwig. Superior workmanship at the relatively small price of £15. Perfect modelling and replicating of the Messe Strad, or the Paganini Guarnerius, Amati, and Maggini. Finely wooded, richly varnished, and of splendid tone. Produced interesting copies of the Servais and Lübeck Strad ’cellos. Also made bows for artists."

The Bass I have just barely qualifies on the "Where are They?" in date as my estimate of c.1860 is the minimum age I was looking for, just hitting 150 years old now. On some instances the Bass looks over 200 years old but that's mainly because of the hard life it's had from constant use as well as the irregular Birdseye Maple wood used for the Back and Ribs. The Top is quite healthy for its age though. The Bass is very comfortable to play and is currenty the Bass I take out most since it's the closest in feel to my former Martini, just not quite the sound as this one is very 'German' sounding but 'old' German.

[Jeff Campbell]

Hello Ken,

I came across this bass and posted some pics on this thread a while ago, but I finally had a chance to take some measurements - this is a BIG bass.
The measurements are thus:

top bout - 21.5
middle bout 15.5
bottom bout 28.5
length of back 49
string length 44.5

Just for fun, I put it next to my big bass and it's interesting to see the two of them side by side.

[Ken Smith]

Which bass is which?

Ok, the reddish one is the big in and your bass is the brownish colored slightly smaller bass, right?

4/4 Bass; .................. My 3/4-7/8 Neuner, English model;
top bout - 21.5...................21.25"
middle bout - 15.5................14.75"
bottom bout - 28.5.............28"
length of back - 49...............45"
string length - 44.5...............41.75"

The two basses, yours and the 4/4 beast are typical Mittenwald style and look very similar in style. My Neuner is more of an English copy with only the construction being German but the model looking English. The upper and lower bouts are very close comparing the 4/4 to the Neuner but the size is way different with the Neuner having a normal length for today's playing or rather short for its time and the 4/4, just what it was made as. Typical 4/4 German. There are some older English basses like that as well from the few I have seen as they are copies of the Germans I think.

[Jeff Campbell]

It's funny to have you call mine the 'smaller' bass, because it's a very large instrument and from the looks of things, it was cut down and very well would have been the same size as the the big red one. What about the gears on the big one? Have you seen others like these? Someone said the red bass may be French but I see N&H or maybe Seitz - Mittenwald personified. On another note, will you be at the ISB this year?

[Ken Smith]

The red Bass is the same pattern as your bass. The neck is a dovetail sitting on top of the block. That is also 1000% German/Mittenwald style. Your bass is just about the exact same outline, corners, back and back center. Same school or shop but maybe not same period, maybe yes. NOTHING is French about either of the two basses. The Gears are 1000% German Gears as used on the Neuner & Hornsteiner Basses. The other ones like on your Bass I have seen on a Seitz bass and a few others. Sometimes not on plates. I had a set on my Big Gamba but there were not original to the Bass as mine was a 3-string bass originally. They were so heavy (iron, brass and steel I think) that I gave them away to Paul Biase.

What is it with people/dealers calling every nice German bass French? They seem to be totally clueless as to what the differences are. Maybe it's money driven motives or maybe just ignorance or blind ignorance for the money.

French Basses do not have necks set in like that and never have a black center strip in the back. Many German basses have German made individual gears. One player I worked with awhile back has a sloped shoulder bass with outer linings (German), gears like the red bass and purfling around the plates. I knew it was a Mittenwald bass and perhaps a Neuner-Hornsteiner. I asked him in a naive voice, "do you know what pedigree your bass is?".. "Yes, it's a Lupot" he said told to him by a dealer. Lupot was the top French maker ever c.1800, before Vuillaume's period. He was the French Strad and ranked with Panormo. Lupot never made a bass and that bass of his was made about 100 years after Lupot. Still, if it has a hint of French style like Gears or Purfling, sell is as a French Bass. lol

Not to rant but I saw one German bass, a Markneukirchen bass, late 19th century. It was similar to the above bass but roundback, German plate gears and purfling around the plates. Inside the bass was a very old sticker "made in Germany" curved around a small tag. The TP had the German makers name written under it BY the Dealer that fixed it and naext to the Germany sticker, the Dealers repair label, all plain as day. THAT same Dealer sold this bass as French with Papers even describing the German linings as Mirecourt and an Insurance appraisal as well. The German make of this bass could not be more clear plus the Sticker said Germany and that same dealer worte the Gearman makers name on the bass and STILL sold and appraised it as French. How Brash is that?

Anyway, I have a concert in a month, Shostakovich 5th, etc.. Trying to choose between the Mittenwald and the Hart as to which bass to use. Decisions decisions..