J.F. Lott Snr. (John Frederick Lott, 1776-1856)

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Matthew Tucker

Found this

http://ezinearticles.com/?John-Lott-...ass&id=4259391

and this

http://johnlottjunior.webs.com/

and this

http://johnlottjunior.webs.com/doublebassistarticle.htm

I have read the original article on that Bass but I do not agree it being made by Lott Jr. aka Jack Lott. That bass looks exactly like a regular John Lott bass. Tom Martin wrote that article and unless it is signed inside by Jr., I doubt it is by him. Jr. was famous for forging Violins by Strad and Del Gesu and also did other things. Look for an article called 'Jack of all Trades'.

On that Stamp in the Back, it is not what is in my Bass at all but then again, my Bass is an early John Hart and not Hart & Sons. I don't know of any mark being made that says 'Harts'. The firm was known as Hart & Sons and that was the mark. If you look at the back of my Dodd Bass, you will see a similar type stamp on the back but different letters, too blurred to read though. It came to me as a Betts bass and then attributed to Dodd BY Tom Martin and more recently another London dealer said he thought it was by Craske. I think that is an 'inked on' stamp that could have been used by dealers. Possibly as rental instruments as many dealers loaned out basses for visiting Orchestras. My Hart had a business card laminated to the block area rib stating they have basses and music stands for rent and that dates over 100 years ago. If you show anyone that bass without the article written, they will tell you it's a typical Lott. Also, as I mentioned, Lott Snr. the Luthier was actually Lott Jnr. himself as his father the non-luthier also John Lott was married in 1775 in the same church a year before the son was christened in 1776. This is how they discovered J.F. Lott as being of British birth.

So, copy that bass as well if you like. It IS a Lott in my book and not by Jack or Jnr. Also, J.F. Lott, the first London maker by that name (b.1776) made basses for other shops by trade. The 5 basses bearing the label of Simon Andrew Forster are J.F. Lott basses, maybe not the Scroll or the Varnish but the Carcass is Lott. Lott Snr. as we will call him was a Bass Maker and made the basses for Dodd that had the outer linings. Lott Jnr., Jack Lott was mainly a Violin maker and according to Whithers where he worked, Jack made only one bass for a Quartet, period. After reading all the stories and seeing the instruments by both makers you can draw your own conclusion. A Jack Lott Bass (Jnr.) is rare as there is only one bass recorded. John Lott made many many basses so they are less rare or somewhat common in comparison. Perhaps the Jr. attribution was financially motivated. Of the 3 Hart basses I have seen with my own eyes (only 1 in person, mine), if this was made for the Hart's then I know 3 different actual makers. John Hart, the early ones (4 of them known like mine), William Valentine, his 'half brother' and bass maker of record (1846 is the one I know), and now this bass from 1845 that looks like a regular Lott bass and has a different stamp on the back.

[Matthew Tucker]

I read in an old back issue of Strad that Withers was a student of Lott Sr, so probably set up shop while Lott Jr was gallivanting around with his elephants, and then maybe gave him a job when he came back 20 years later ...

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Matthew Tucker

I read in an old back issue of Strad that Withers was a student of Lott Sr, so probably set up shop while Lott Jr was gallivanting around with his elephants, and then maybe gave him a job when he came back 20 years later ...

ONE of the Withers guys was the pupil of Lott Jnr., Jack Lott.. There are several generations of the Withers makers. To learn more, read the book 'Edward Withers LTD .. 230 Years of Violin Craft in Soho' by Adam Whone.

It was in this book that he referenced the Forster's incorrectly by calling old Forster William I and Young Forster William II when in fact they were II and III. I emailed him but he never responded. I bought the book on line directly from the author. It is actually a great book to read and not all Violin shop talk. I suggest you get a copy and some insight to the gathered information thru the eyes of this Author and the accounting's on record of the last 230 years.

[Matthew Tucker]

Here's the link to the book "jack of all trades" very loosely about Jack Lott. great read.

http://www.digitalpixels.org/jr/cr/jack.html

[Anselm Hauke]

wow, thanks for that link matthew!

[Ken Smith]

Yes, I have read that and the reason I suggested you look it up. But, he was not a Bass maker but a Violin maker, when he did Luthier work. The father was the maker of almost every Lott named bass less one or maybe two. I think!

[Adrian Levi]

Originally Posted by Matthew Tucker

Here's the link to the book "jack of all trades" very loosely about Jack Lott. great read.

http://www.digitalpixels.org/jr/cr/jack.html

A very interesting read ! Making instruments in between pitchforking and abusing elephants , doesn't get more diverse than that.

[Adrian Levi]

this link allegedly has part pics of a Lott Jnr bass ....

http://www.batchelar.com/Repairs.html

[Chris Shaw]

Hello all,

The bass you've been discussing recently is mine. I bought it a couple of years ago, after the Double Bassist article had been written. I've been in touch with the player who owned it for around 40 years from about 1960 and he only knew it as a Hart's bass. I've discussed it's origins a few times with Tom Martin. He's adamant that there are significant differences between basses by Lott Senior and Lott junior and is convinced that this one is by Lott Junior. That actually makes it less valuable over here in the U.K. as basses by Lott senior are looked upon as about the most desirable orchestral instruments. I guess that Tom has probably seen more English basses than most people, so I tend to go with his opinion.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Chris Shaw

Hello all,

The bass you've been discussing recently is mine. I bought it a couple of years ago, after the Double Bassist article had been written. I've been in touch with the player who owned it for around 40 years from about 1960 and he only knew it as a Hart's bass. I've discussed it's origins a few times with Tom Martin. He's adamant that there are significant differences between basses by Lott Senior and Lott junior and is convinced that this one is by Lott Junior. That actually makes it less valuable over here in the U.K. as basses by Lott senior are looked upon as about the most desirable orchestral instruments. I guess that Tom has probably seen more English basses than most people, so I tend to go with his opinion.

When a person writes an article and then sells that exact bass the dealer/writer tends to defend his opinions for whatever reasons, usually monetary and reputation. Not all basses written about are what they actually are so here in my Forum I an expressing my doubt that this bass is Lott Jnr/ Also, there is nothing in the records about Hart, John Hart or Hart & Sons that references dealings with Lott Jnr. Also, I have never heard of that firm using the word 'Harts'. John Hart himself possibly made my bass and 3 others with it. William Vallentine who was his half brother (I know this from the mention in John's Will) was known as a Bass maker who worked for the Hart family mainly. Any British maker could have made that bass in its time because they were the great copyists of the Maggini/d'Salo model. Some slight differences between makers but when doing copies, it's hard to tell. Especially when it is a shop production of one on the carcass, one doing the scroll and a different person on the varnishing. Lott Jnr. according to Whithers made only one bass for a quartet that was for an exhibit. That is in writing too. So, who is correct here, the personal notes and journals from Whither's who worked with him or Martin a century and a half later appraising the work?

The last Lott sold here in the states did not do so well as it was the condition of the bass, the repair work and the sound that brought it a relatively low price. That Bass I personally know and played and had in my shop for a month or so. There are other makers who have recently fetched much more than any Lott Snr bass I know so don't be so worried about its value being Jnr., Snr. or other. It's a nice bass made by one of them and no name will change the bass itself. Tom Martin has opinions about my bass too and it is 100% opposite of what a few others believe. Do I care? No. Does it hurt the value of the Bass? No. It is a John Hart Bass as marked and will sell as such regardless who who thinks who made it and when. My Hart will see on its own merits only, sound, playability, condition, merit of repairs and whatever pedigree the buyer believes. Your Bass is marked Hart's so we can assume they at the least handled this bass at one time if not having it made or made in the shop. Maybe Tom Martin is correct and everyone else now and in past history is wrong, it happens. Enjoy the bass you have and use the attribution attached to it if you like. No one knows more than the makers and sellers from that period that are dead and buried now so we have to go on what we see and assume from our individual experience, knowledge and opinions drawn from it.

Care to post some pics of it here on the forum?

[Chris Shaw]

Hi Ken,

You are, of course, absolutely right that nobody will ever know for sure who made most of these unlabelled basses. I forgot to say, however, that I have seen a virtually identical bass to mine. It was at Roger Dawson's a few months ago. We put them side by side and they are so similar that they must have been made by the same person. The other bass was stamped Hart inside as I believe yours is, but not on the button like mine. That one belongs to Jani Pensola in the L.S.O.

All the best,
Chris.

[Matthew Tucker]

Originally Posted by Adrian Levi

A very interesting read ! Making instruments in between pitchforking and abusing elephants , doesn't get more diverse than that.

Sure is. The guy sounds like a nasty little fellow. I was shocked by all the gore. No wonder the poor elephant kept rolling people when they weren't looking ...