Bass Age vs Label - Antique Roadshow Moment

[Matthew Tucker]

Peter Bockius (germany) plays one perhaps he has photos?

[Dave Irwin]

So I can't explain the brands not being in your photo Ken. But check out the markings/stains around the top of the label. They appear to me to match!
Note the 3 spots to the right of the "cleat?" I dunno my inerds...
And the "L" facing down on the right.


@Matt, I emailed him. We'll see if he responds with a pic!

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Dave Irwin

So I can't explain the brands not being in your photo Ken. But check out the markings/stains around the top of the label. They appear to me to match!
Note the 3 spots to the right of the "cleat?" I dunno my inerds...
And the "L" facing down on the right.


@Matt, I emailed him. We'll see if he responds with a pic!
Attachment 2472

Those are not from my Book. They are from an Ebay ad and your pics. One is recent on TB, one older and one Ebay. You posted the same one twice, two different exposures of the same shot.

Outside linings on German basses must be at least 200 years old or so. I have also seen them on English and Italian basses from the turn of the 18/19th century and before. I think they both took it from the Germans. Just my guess. Not all German or Czech basses had linings in the same period. It depends on the maker and design. Some makers have made basses both ways, with and without the outer linings over time. It's just a style.

Not all old basses have a high value or sound good either. They were making tons of string instruments in the 19-20th centuries and some, only some were hand made. The rest made in factories or parts assembled in shops made by other families and outworkers. It was the trade then to do so. There were 18th century factories as well from what I have read. Supply and demand = industry.

There are many basses from the German, Austrian and Czech schools that were made for export, students, schools and lower income people over time. I have seen beautiful handmade basses as well as cheap looking boxes with strings made just to have a sound and shape like a bass from the same areas. This is true with all string instruments. Just like today, not everyone can afford a bass in the $50-200k range. The majority of bass sales are probably under 5-10k, many even lower today. About 50 years ago, low end basses were $100-$200. I think they have gone way up, pushed by the economy of the lowest cost decent Asian bass so if it's good and older European, it should cost more.

If you like your bass and it's early 20th century instead of late 19th century, it can have the same value. Maybe that Ebay bass was as labeled (as I doubt) and maybe it needed 5k of work or maybe it had no sound.

I have had 3 old simple made Czech basses in the last 2 years here, 80-120 years old, estimated. They varied in sound and sold at different prices, two of them. The 3rd is still here awaiting repairs. They sell for their sound and condition. If the sound is not there, the price is lower. If it needs work, the price is lower. If it sounds good and needs no major work, the price is higher. There was no pedigree with either of these basses. They were/are priced fairly for their worth.

[Dave Irwin]

Sorry, I totally misunderstood about the picture from the book. I see the pic from my seller's photo album. Still confused about the absence of the brand in that pic.

Anyway, regarding the outside linings, is you point that would have to be older than the label indicates to have them? Or that they indicate my bass is older than 20th century?

I'm very happy with the bass so that or even the value is the issue. I'm just interested in solving the mystery of it. My only interest in the ebay bass was to compare notes. Ofcourse if it is not authentic, I know the odds are mine isn't either.

Anyway, thanks for your time in reviewing!

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

Those are not from my Book. They are from an Ebay ad and your pics. One is recent on TB, one older and one Ebay. You posted the same one twice, two different exposures of the same shot.

Outside linings on German basses must be at least 200 years old or so. I have also seen them on English and Italian basses from the turn of the 18/19th century and before. I think they both took it from the Germans. Just my guess. Not all German or Czech basses had linings in the same period. It depends on the maker and design. Some makers have made basses both ways, with and without the outer linings over time. It's just a style.

Not all old basses have a high value or sound good either. They were making tons of string instruments in the 19-20th centuries and some, only some were hand made. The rest made in factories or parts assembled in shops made by other families and outworkers. It was the trade then to do so. There were 18th century factories as well from what I have read. Supply and demand = industry.

There are many basses from the German, Austrian and Czech schools that were made for export, students, schools and lower income people over time. I have seen beautiful handmade basses as well as cheap looking boxes with strings made just to have a sound and shape like a bass from the same areas. This is true with all string instruments. Just like today, not everyone can afford a bass in the $50-200k range. The majority of bass sales are probably under 5-10k, many even lower today. About 50 years ago, low end basses were $100-$200. I think they have gone way up, pushed by the economy of the lowest cost decent Asian bass so if it's good and older European, it should cost more.

If you like your bass and it's early 20th century instead of late 19th century, it can have the same value. Maybe that Ebay bass was as labeled (as I doubt) and maybe it needed 5k of work or maybe it had no sound.

I have had 3 old simple made Czech basses in the last 2 years here, 80-120 years old, estimated. They varied in sound and sold at different prices, two of them. The 3rd is still here awaiting repairs. They sell for their sound and condition. If the sound is not there, the price is lower. If it needs work, the price is lower. If it sounds good and needs no major work, the price is higher. There was no pedigree with either of these basses. They were/are priced fairly for their worth.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Dave Irwin

Sorry, I totally misunderstood about the picture from the book. I see the pic from my seller's photo album. Still confused about the absence of the brand in that pic.

Anyway, regarding the outside linings, is you point that would have to be older than the label indicates to have them? Or that they indicate my bass is older than 20th century?

I'm very happy with the bass so that or even the value is the issue. I'm just interested in solving the mystery of it. My only interest in the ebay bass was to compare notes. Ofcourse if it is not authentic, I know the odds are mine isn't either.

Anyway, thanks for your time in reviewing!

The outside linings and the roundback to me point more to a Bass made either in Germany or the Czech/German border area, not Viennese. Other features are the Top and Back overhang past the Rib Linings. That in itself is very Germanic as well. Viennese and Prague bass almost all have the Ribs without outer linings Flush with the Top and Back plates.

I have an old German(?) bass in restoration right now that is equally confusing to me as your new/old bass is to you. Mine has a round back and outer linings but, the Top and Back plates are flush with the Linings, No overhang. The position of the Purfling on both plates tell me that this is all original. Also, it has slanted F-holes and a killer old Lionhead. We are stumped by its age and origin. So, old basses are often hard to pinpoint what they are unless we have other identical basses that are confirmed to be whatever. I would have a hard time believing this bass of yours is from Vienna. If it is/was, then he made German-like roundback basses which again, doesn't add up.

All of the old confirmed Viennese basses that I have seen have flat backs with angle breaks and mostly flush ribs without outer linings. The Scrolls are often with pointed cheeks and the pegbox rounded under the button area. The FFs are also quite different as well. So, until I see a confirmed Feilnreiter bass by Franz or one of the other 4 members of his family (yes, 5 of them that I found), then I think my hunch is correct, for now!