Mystery Cello 1670?

[Ken Smith]

http://www.cello.org/heaven/cowling/prescott.jpg

From; http://www.cello.org/heaven/cowling/makecel.htm

Cello Size Comparison .Length of Body Upper Bouts Lower Bouts

Pietro Guarneri.............30 inches 13 3/8 inches 17 1/2 inches

Santo Seraphin............ 28 3/4 inches 13 13/16 inches 16 7/8 inches

Abraham Prescott........ 32 inches 14 1/2 inches 18 5/8 inches

[Mike Weems]

This cello measures
body length 29 1/4
upper bout width 13 1/4
lower bout 16 3/8

so I guess it's a true cello? going over link cello page thanks again.

[Mike Weems]

I am going to go ahead and restore this cello. the question that I have is this. The dimensions are odd on this instrument so is it ok to alter some, such as f-stop and neck length or do I stay with original intent. This would also apply to any future basses that I may have to repair. I don't have a problem making structural changes.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Mike Weems

I am going to go ahead and restore this cello. the question that I have is this. The dimensions are odd on this instrument so is it ok to alter some, such as f-stop and neck length or do I stay with original intent. This would also apply to any future basses that I may have to repair. I don't have a problem making structural changes.

I don't know what this needs. Altering an instrument is irreversible. Also, I have no idea what your skills are. You are talking major surgery on an old Cello/Church Bass. This is most likely a Prescott or something close. In the Cello world, these Yankee instruments do not have a high value. The basses on the other hand do but they are usually big and big is not 'in' at the moment. I have owned one Prescott (sold), one Batchelder (sold) and a beautiful JB Allen bass. For the sound that each of these produce, I feel that they sell more in the German to English price ranges rather then the Italian.

So, be prepared to spend time and money that you will not receive back as this can turn into a negative cost/value project.

Every instrument is different. It's value in the end is usually my guide to what work will be affordable for recouping my investment. Sometimes however, the love for an instrument gets the best of you. I am currently having (amongst other basses) an old Tirol blockless bass restored and repaired as well as altered. The string length will be slightly shortened with a block 'area' cut and its first block installed as it never had one. Many Tirol, German and Bohemian instruments were made without neck blocks and more-so in the style of guitar construction. Before the German countries made violins, they were content making just Lutes and Guitars. The trailed the Italians by about 100 years getting into the Violin. Some believe that Stainer was the first and introduced the violin to the Germans but, I don't think that is 100% accurate. None the less, these Yankee self taught makers learned from a combination of German imports coming in and cabinet making in skills. Combiner together, you have the Yankee basses which include the large Cello-like Church basses and a few smaller ones that were closer to the size of the Cello. If it had tuning gears/plates with machines like double basses and not pegs like a violin, then your instrument was most likely made and intended to be a Church Bass regardless of its size. Maybe!.. I have seen a few cheap german violins with tiny guitar sized gears as well but those I believe were made for students as opposed to professionals.

As far as building styles go over the 4+ centuries and the pinpointing of who did what where or when, it's a total mess tyring to line these origins up. It's more like a 400 year free for all. Do what you like and they will sort it out in the future.. lol

[Mike Weems]

Once again thanks for this info. I will restore this as a church bass and not try to make it into a cello. As mentioned a few posts ago it has a repair label in it from 1922 J Renwick Metheny. Also found a large hand written note on the back listing all the repairs he did to it all of which will have to be undone. Pretty horrific stuff. He was into old instrument stuff so I suspect that is where the 1670 hand written date came from. I don't like to criticize someone who is not here and over such a long time but man what a mess. I have posted some pics of the inside so you will see what I will have to deal with. As for my level I have been repairing and making violins and guitars for 29years god I can' believe how fast time goes. since the back has been cut of ie out of the grove in the back what I would like to do is to fully line the instrument add corner blocks and heel graft the neck so it can be converted to a typical neck joint with new neck block. As I have moved into restoration work I only restore Instruments that belong to me all the while be cognizant of prosperity. With forum like this Upton bass and others the restoration work I have done has come out quite well.

Thanking you again
Mike Weems

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Mike Weems

Once again thanks for this info. I will restore this as a church bass and not try to make it into a cello. As mentioned a few posts ago it has a repair label in it from 1922 J Renwick Metheny. Also found a large hand written note on the back listing all the repairs he did to it all of which will have to be undone. Pretty horrific stuff. He was into old instrument stuff so I suspect that is where the 1670 hand written date came from. I don't like to criticize someone who is not here and over such a long time but man what a mess. I have posted some pics of the inside so you will see what I will have to deal with. As for my level I have been repairing and making violins and guitars for 29years god I can' believe how fast time goes. since the back has been cut of ie out of the grove in the back what I would like to do is to fully line the instrument add corner blocks and heel graft the neck so it can be converted to a typical neck joint with new neck block. As I have moved into restoration work I only restore Instruments that belong to me all the while be cognizant of prosperity. With forum like this Upton bass and others the restoration work I have done has come out quite well.

Thanking you again
Mike Weems

I don't know what others you watch but look at some old basses on my site that have archived photos of the repairs. You need blocks where you don't have as well as linings. You need to cut all the old wood from the neck heel and see if it can be used or make a neck graft and get the length and heel done right. Those repairs by todays standards and even back then are quite horrible. Gut the instrument and do it all right.

My Prescott bass has signs of the ribs inserted into the back at least and maybe the top. The upper and lower bouts were cut down but I suspect it was blockless just like this cello.

Post restoration; http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/prescott/

Pre-restoration and restoration pics; http://www.kensmithbasses.com/double...t-preview.html

[Mike Weems]

That is what I plan to do. Your Prescott pics are where I started. Yes would like to save the old neck as that seams relatively unmarred. Want very much to save the extra volutes at the nut area because if it indeed is a Prescott he carved them. I can re-carve them of course but it won't be quite the same This instrument has always seam special to me thus finely decided to bring it back from the abyss.
Thanks again for all the help.