Upton Basses

[Michael Case]

I already have a Czech factory bass (hybrid Strunal). I've had the fingerboard, bridge, tailgut, replaced at Gage. So basically I have a bass similar to an Upton? I love the sound of my bass and don't feel a real need to make a sideways move. I think I'm going to take a trip to Gage, 30 minutes by subway instead of 2 or more hours to Connecticut, during the week (SPRING BREAK!) and look at some basses in the $5,000 range. Then I'm going to see if Arnold has a NS in stock that I can check out and take a drive to his place.

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

Ken,
I completely understand your comments and can't really argue the validity of any of them. However, a couple of things come to mind.
Finishes: If the basses come with either a lacquer or varnish (upgrade) finish, what is the price difference. The Uptons come with an oil varnish tinted to the customer's preference. This is their standard finish.
Comparing them to a NS is a fair comparison, but there is a significant price difference. Several top bassists in town, including a member of the KC Symphony, have played my bass and commented on the fine setup. None have mentioned any problem with the neck set. My teacher told me he had never seen as nice a bass for so little money. I'm not disputing the potential benefit of Arnolds methods; merely the practical benefits in terms of value. A LaScala is a beautiful bass, but twice the price of my Upton and certainly out of my price range.
FF's and Hype: I agree with you on this. Personally, I don't care at all how some designer came up with my FF's. Give me a classic design that fits the bass and don't make a big deal about it.
I do agree that Upton occasionally crosses the line on TB. They are trying to build a business and sell product. Were I in their position, I would like to think I'd lower the hype, but I can't say for sure.
Sizzle helps to sell the steak.
Due to the fact that I live in Kansas, much of what you are saying is theoretical anyway. There aren't any Shen, Wultur or NS basses within hundreds of miles of me. KC Strings offers a Chinese line that frankly doesn't compare. Another shop offers Eastmans on a special order basis carrying no stock. Then there are the guys like Branstetter who may have a bass or two on occasion. In my market, the supply is limited. Had I purchased a Gigla bass from JR for instance, by the time I paid shipping, and a full set up, the bass would have been much more than $2000.
The Upton came to me with a great set up, oil varnish in the color of my choosing for $2600. Even at the current price of $2900, I think they are a fair value given the level of set up offered. For me it was a good choice. If I lived in a larger city with more choices, I may have made a different choice.

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

One more thing. Calling an Upton a Hawkes, Panormo or whatever has no significance with me. It's like the guy in Phoenix calling his bass 'Wan Bernadel' lol. They could have called my bass 'Design #1' for all I care.

But again, names do affect the marketability of products. Remember the Edsel?

[Ken Smith]

Here is the dealer list for JR; http://www.jrmusicsupply.com/stores.htm

I can see how availability can make the difference as well as free shipping offered but I just want to point out what is and what isn't and give some other options.

Of course their Basses have merits in their class. They are just not the only game in town, that's all.

[Michael Case]

I was asking if an Upton bass would be a reasonable upgrade for someone with a factory bass that has all the perks of an Upton (new fingerboard, bridge, end pin)? Or should I set my sites on something a little higher up the food chain (NS or older European bass in the same price range)?

I have seen so many Romanian basses with the same design as the Upton's. My school (City College of New York) recently purchased a 12 year old Romanian bass, with a very dark and antiqued finish for $10,000 my teacher went to Gage's and picked it out, needless to say it sounds fantastic. I know a player who has a 5 year old solid bass, also Romanian, very similar to the Upton that he paid about the same price they want for the professor. Personally I think the bass my school purchased WOULD be a reasonable upgrade soundwise, but the other Romanian I mentioned isn't that impressive. It just gets me thinking.

I'm very happy with my bass at the moment, but I know that an upgrade will serve me well in the future. I'm curious about Upton because of the price.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Michael Case

I was asking if an Upton bass would be a reasonable upgrade for someone with a factory bass that has all the perks of an Upton (new fingerboard, bridge, end pin)? Or should I set my sites on something a little higher up the food chain (NS or older European bass in the same price range)?

I have seen so many Romanian basses with the same design as the Upton's. My school (City College of New York) recently purchased a 12 year old Romanian bass, with a very dark and antiqued finish for $10,000 my teacher went to Gage's and picked it out, needless to say it sounds fantastic. I know a player who has a 5 year old solid bass, also Romanian, very similar to the Upton that he paid about the same price they want for the professor. Personally I think the bass my school purchased WOULD be a reasonable upgrade sound wise, but the other Romanian I mentioned isn't that impressive. It just gets me thinking.

I'm very happy with my bass at the moment, but I know that an upgrade will serve me well in the future. I'm curious about Upton because of the price.

An upgrade from your Factory Bass should NOT be another Factory Bass which is what an Upton is actually. They don't make the Bass. Also, I am not sure their so called Oil Varnish is any better than what they could get directly from Romania. Jeff Bollbach finished his Pallota Lion with oil Varnish using about 17 thin coats sun-dried between coats. Now that is better than a factory Varnish BUT the cost is greater than what Upton paid for their Bass in the white from Romania. I Highly doubt they put a tenth of the work into varnishing a plywood Bass. Also, WHO is doing this Varnish work? A Pro maker or a teenager from the skateboard park? Jeff's Bass was made for the ISB competition. Would Upton enter their 'hand oil varnished' 'Hawkes' (lol) in an ISB competition for the Judges to view their work for the world. I'm sorry but every time I hear the name Hawkes and Upton I have to take a deep breath because a Hawks Bass is actually a Hawkes Panormo copy supplied to Boosey & Hawkes or Hawkes & Son in London c.1880 - c1925 or so. The earlier dates yielding Riviere-Hawkes models made in Mirecourt France and the latter from Germany or a few maybe from London or finished in London.

The first thing a player does when testing out a Bass is playing over the shoulders to get up to thumb position. The Dragonetti (a standard piece) requires playing harmonics way past the fingerboard on all strings but the E. The Hawkes shape is not one I would buy for this kind of work. Why make a modern Bass or maybe promote one that has a shape that has caused so many Basses to be cut-down in order to play the upper registers?

Anyway, as you can see I am not much of a fan of Uptons in any shape or form, sorry. Some of it is personal from how I was 'muted' over on TalkBass by the mods when I got into discussions and even had a post deleted by them because it pointed the finger 'in gest' mind you at their tactics to get attention. Even if their Bass was the better of the two from the JR version, I would not do business with them. That's my personal opinion.

Now, back to your upgrade question again. Tell us your budget with or without trade and you will get some suggestions. If you don't know Paul Biase in NYC, then PM me for his info. He IS the top shop in NY for high grade Basses and has a few mid and lower cost Basses as well. I know him for 35 years and would be dealing with him if I were still living in the city. As a matter of fact, he is restoring my Mystery Bass besides us working together on some other sales or Basses, Bows and even Violins. From a Juzek Bass to a Strad Violin, this is all common ground for Biase. If you like, feel free to show some pics of your current Bass in the designated Forum.

[Michael Case]

My budget right now is in the $5,000 area, it could go a bit higher if the right bass comes along. As for a trade I was hoping to keep my old bass as a back-up to whatever new bass I purchased. I see that ideal has two Wilfer # 10's for about that and I know Gage has a few basses in that range. I'd like to see what Basie has to offer as well.

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

Jeff Bollbach finished his Pallota Lion with oil Varnish using about 17 thin coats sun-dried between coats. Now that is better than a factory Varnish BUT the cost is greater than what Upton paid for their Bass in the white from Romania. I Highly doubt they put a tenth of the work into varnishing a plywood Bass. Jeff's Bass was made for the ISB competition. Would Upton enter their 'hand oil varnished' 'Hawkes' (lol) in an ISB competition for the Judges to view their work for the world.

Jeff's bass is considerably nicer than 99.999999 % of the basses out there. To compare the varnish on a $2900 instrument is just inane. Would they enter a $2900 bass for the ISB to judge???? Of course not.

There are a lot of choices available to anyone considering a bass. You have a personal bias against Upton, and I know you aren't alone, but they do have many satisfied customers.

Don't worry about me turning this into TB. I have always said that I have been happy with my bass and think Upton merits consideration in the price range. If I had twice the money, I would probably be playing a NS, BTW. I know exactly what you are talking about over on TB and I partially agree, but running down the competition isn't becoming. The Ken Smith I've come to know and respect is bigger than that. There's plenty to go around.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Greg Clinkingbeard

Jeff's bass is considerably nicer than 99.999999 % of the basses out there. To compare the varnish on a $2900 instrument is just inane. Would they enter a $2900 bass for the ISB to judge???? Of course not.

There are a lot of choices available to anyone considering a bass. You have a personal bias against Upton, and I know you aren't alone, but they do have many satisfied customers.

Don't worry about me turning this into TB. I have always said that I have been happy with my bass and think Upton merits consideration in the price range. If I had twice the money, I would probably be playing a NS, BTW. I know exactly what you are talking about over on TB and I partially agree, but running down the competition isn't becoming. The Ken Smith I've come to know and respect is bigger than that. There's plenty to go around.

Not really trying to run them down as you put it unless they have been placed a bit too high for the claims they make as well as the other boasters echoing their claims. This being the Varnish issue for one. Yes Jeff's is one of the best Varnish jobs you can get BUT why does Upton brag about doing it themselves? Are they better than a real Bass maker in the Gliga shop that Varnishes for a living day in and day out? I will be getting two Basses from JR soon that has both the Gliga Varnish and the Wultur upgrade they offer on the Gliga supplied Plys and Hybrids. Then I will know better what Romania has to offer. The 6 Basses I got before were all nice in the Varnish department but Spirit and not Oil and as you mention a $2900 Bass 'retail' why would they ever bother varnishing it themselves unless the shop finish was just not good at all? What level of finish professionally actually goes on that Bass from Upton?

The Upton line has their merits and their place in the market. That is obvious but to see so much praise by some first time Bass buyers should be taken for face value. If we start to see a bunch of French, English and Italian Basses for sale on Ebay from the Philly Orch, NY Phil etc. and the Bass sections filling up with Upton 'Hawkes' Plywoods and Hybrids, THEN and only then will these boasting claims have any real merit earned to get my attention.

Until then, they are no more than another Shop Brand Bass with some overly promoted features that easily join the ranks of more modestly promoted brands and products offered by Shen, JR, New Standard and a few others. Hey, let's not forget that a Kay Bass in decent condition with the Neck moved out will be a good buy as well, ok?

One thing that used to bother me personally over on TB was all this excitement and bragging about these great plywood and Hybrid Basses with Upton included in the mix. I rarely got a fraction of the excitement introducing a Dodd, Gilkes, Prescott or other great REAL handmade classics than what we saw when the new Home Depot Hybrid hit the store shelves.