The Bass in Fifths

[Jeff Moote]

edit: Ken posted while I was writing this, so my later post and not this one is a response to his.

I'll begin with how I came to be interested in fifths tuning. I think the first time I heard anything about it was in reading about Joel Quarrington who I'm sure you're all familiar with at this point. I read his website and various comments on the message boards. I quickly learned of all the other people who are tuning their basses this way, as well as the history behind it (3 string basses tuned GDA, etc.)

Last year I heard Mr. Q premier the Harbison concerto, which was commissioned by the ISB but the fact that Quarrington would be playing it did have some influence in its composition (open strings, harmonics, etc.) as did the fact that some might use orchestra tuning and some solo.

More recently I heard Joel perform the Bottesini Gran Duo Concertante, but by this time I'd already become interested in the tuning as something I might want to try.


Recently I've become increasingly frustrated with intonation issues on the bass. Intonation that coordinates well with the other string instruments (all tuned in fifths) is one of the benefits usually presented by a defender of this tuning. Another that usually comes up right away is the open, sonorous texture that the bass takes on - this is what really got me. I recently tuned my E down to a D to grab the low note for a certain passage. In doing this the overtone series that was created really did something for the sound of my bass, as did the slightly lower tension (and yes, you don't need to get on me about using some lower tension strings than my favoured Original Flexocor)

All this combined with my desire for the contra C (which I'd otherwise get an extension for) really makes fifths tuning appeal to me. The fact that I'm young and not too far in my education, but far enough to handle the bass alright also means that I'm at a good point to be re-learning the instrument.


Right now my biggest obstacle is finding an appropriate teacher. My most recent studies were with a player from the Toronto Symphony and it was a very fruitful time for my learning. I'd love to continue those studies but for now school and location get in the way of that. The problem is that all the TSO players and in fact many of the pros in Ontario all studied under the same teachers - specifically under Tom Monahan (then principal of the TSO) at the University of Toronto. All of these guys are very strong on their idea of the "right" way to play the bass - that is: french bow, std tuning with a C ext (many using machines still) and a very conservative Simandl left hand technique. While this is a great way to play the bass for much of the orchestral repertoire, it has its limitations.

I've got a few names and the list of pros tuning in fifths grows as students of people like Joel head out into the world.

That's all for now, but like I said, more later as I learn more and get closer to making the switch...

[Ken Smith]

Jeff, on your comment about "3 string basses tuned GDA, etc." do you have the G-string on top or bottom in 5ths? I think in England at least it was 3 of the 4 strings we have now with the A on the bottom all in fourths. Over 99% of the Orchestra players in the world (maybe less) use fourths with or without an Ext. or a 5er to Low B or C. If this 5ths thing was a better option, more than just one or two players would have switched by now.

Next factor is the Bass. Many of the Basses we play today with 4 high tensioned steel strings in fourths were originally made for 3 lower tensioned Gut strings in 4ths or some other combination.

Many Basses today have sunken Tops from the extra pressure of 4 steel strings. Joel has a fine old Bass but I'm am not sure if it is a G.P. Maggini, a Santo Maggini (not related) of some other nice old Italian or even English made Italian copy. Regardless of who made his Bass, it is a 'smokin' instrument. I don't know if all the Basses out there could be successfully converted to 5ths and hold up structurally. Playability is the other factor. The Bass is hard enough to play as it is. Many a concert I shook my hands afterwards from fatigue.

I did recently and a long time ago as well tune my Bass in 5ths to give it a try. I was LOST!!

On d-tuning, I have also tuned down to Eb, D, Db and C on occasion and it was no picnic. I had to put fingerings in the music to remind myself where to play the notes up to the Ab before crossing over, etc. Also, I had to tune down and up during the music and count the turns on my tuner that I rehearsed. I look like the guy in the section fumbling with his Bass when in actuality, I'm the guy that is actually playing the written part correctly.

Currently I am working out this summer on my 5er to get ready to play Beethoven's 6th the Storm movement. It is only for a few passages I need the 5er being that the Extension is a lot of jumping and intonation is just about impossible. It is more likely that I will get injured trying than not. The 5-string is most likely what the piece was written for and not a 4-string tuned in 5ths, I think..

[Jeff Moote]

Ken, I really appreciate your input since you like my teachers have the advantage of experience I couldn't hope to have at this point in my life. That's what it's all about...

We should probably give others a chance to discuss or we might as well be talking privately, but anyhow..

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

Jeff, on your comment about "3 string basses tuned GDA, etc." do you have the G-string on top or bottom in 5ths? I think in England at least it was 3 of the 4 strings we have now with the A on the bottom all in fourths.

Yes, I'm aware of the practice you speak of in England at the time (4ths up from A the same as our current A string). As far as I know though, some of the first examples of tuning in fifths were from the G on the bottom - basically that was the best they could do with the strings at the time. Now with 5 strings being the norm in some circles, we have B/C strings available that make CGDA tuning a reality.

Over 99% of the Orchestra players in the world (maybe less) use fourths with or without an Ext. or a 5er to Low B or C. If this 5ths thing was a better option, more than just one or two players would have switched by now.

I don't know how literally you meant "one or two" but there are more than that (and the number is growing fast, as naturally all the students of these players are following). Of course the figure of 99% playing in 4ths either with an ext or 5th string is probably close to the truth. Old habits don't die quickly, but things change over time. At one time Viennese tuning was popular, and it's now making a comeback (mostly for solo use). What I'm getting at is that most players are using what they do because that's what their teacher used. The bass is such a young instrument (in its current form) that it really doesn't have the same background in tradition that the other string instruments do, so naturally players follow what tradition we do have.

Next factor is the Bass. Many of the Basses we play today with 4 high tensioned steel strings in fourths were originally made for 3 lower tensioned Gut strings in 4ths or some other combination.

Many Basses today have sunken Tops from the extra pressure of 4 steel strings. Joel has a fine old Bass but I'm am not sure if it is a G.P. Maggini, a Santo Maggini (not related) of some other nice old Italian or even English made Italian copy. Regardless of who made his Bass, it is a 'smokin' instrument. I don't know if all the Basses out there could be successfully converted to 5ths and hold up structurally.

Joel's bass is indeed a 'smokin' instrument as anyone who has heard it will tell you (have you? You should make an effort to if not - he really is a wonderful soloist!). Do you think his students all have a fine old bass like that though? With careful selection of strings, the tension doesn't have to be high at all. For example the strings Joel uses have a total of 276.7 lbs of tension according to Thomastik's figures. A set of regular gauge Flex 92s (notably lighter than my current strings) have 271.4 lbs of tension. I don't think structurally the bass is at risk in the least. Now for generating tone, that's another question, but we face that challenge regardless of tuning.

Playability is the other factor. The Bass is hard enough to play as it is. Many a concert I shook my hands afterwards from fatigue.

Alright, we can all relate to that. Playing the bass isn't easy, but I don't feel that fifths make it impossible by any means. I'm not misled to thinking it's easier in any way. This is just one of the factors that must be weighed against the benefits when considering the switch.

I did recently and a long time ago as well tune my Bass in 5ths to give it a try. I was LOST!!

On d-tuning, I have also tuned down to Eb, D, Db and C on occasion and it was no picnic. I had to put fingerings in the music to remind myself where to play the notes up to the Ab before crossing over, etc. Also, I had to tune down and up during the music and count the turns on my tuner that I rehearsed. I look like the guy in the section fumbling with his Bass when in actuality, I'm the guy that is actually playing the written part correctly.

When I tuned to D it was not for a passage in a work I was performing, but an excerpt I was working on (for an audition). Having to switch mid-performance would be deadly, and is a good reason to use one of the choices available (C ext, 5 string, 5ths tuning). About getting confused... I didn't find it too bad at all. I wasn't sight reading, but I didn't need to include extra fingerings or anything to learn it. Perhaps my mind just works well for this kind of thing... engineering school must be good for something. This is clearly a technical task for the mind, not a musical one, so it can be overcome fairly easily.

Currently I am working out this summer on my 5er to get ready to play Beethoven's 6th the Storm movement. It is only for a few passages I need the 5er being that the Extension is a lot of jumping and intonation is just about impossible. It is more likely that I will get injured trying than not. The 5-string is most likely what the piece was written for and not a 4-string tuned in 5ths, I think..

Funny you mention this - I'm performing the last 2 movements of the 6th next week. I don't have an ext so I'm just playing the low notes up (or not at all in the really fast bits). Luckily our conductor is a past cellist and understands that a lot of creative liberty can be taken with that part in terms of how much playing goes on vs. faking the notes. It is supposed to sound like a storm after all I don't think it matters what bass you play that on - 5 string or ext (or fifths) - Beethoven could never have intended for each note to be played with precision.

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

Shifting not a cause for intonation problems?

I beg to differ... No, I don't beg, I just differ!

I didn't say it wasn't a cause - just not the biggest. Not in my mind anyway. It certainly is a factor in achieving good intonation, but it's usually the big leaps or shifting in upper positions that cause this. Fifths tuning even eliminates some of the big shifts, though everyone admits that more shifting is required period. I never said this was going to be easy...

[Matthew Tucker]

I heard Toronto bassist Andrew Downing last week in a small club. He played a german/czech bass tuned in fifths. He played solidly, at a variety of speeds, in tune all the way. Great player.

I don't understand how intonation should be any more of a problem than tuned in fourths? surely it depends what you are trying to play. In fifths, you play 10ths across three strings in the shape we would normally play octaves. In fact, probably a better way to get an in-tune 10th than spanning 4 strings like we do?

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Matthew Tucker

I heard Toronto bassist Andrew Downing last week in a small club. He played a german/czech bass tuned in fifths. He played solidly, at a variety of speeds, in tune all the way. Great player.

I don't understand how intonation should be any more of a problem than tuned in fourths? surely it depends what you are trying to play. In fifths, you play 10ths across three strings in the shape we would normally play octaves. In fact, probably a better way to get an in-tune 10th than spanning 4 strings like we do?

I can see 10ths for Jazz playing but the Bow doesn't bend that way..lol

Try playing some of the Beethoven parts or even Mozart. At that point you are working twice as hard as the Cellos. Longer and thicker strings with a bigger body and heavier bow. Jumping octaves with the Bow would actually be more awkward I think especially for the left hand.

In Jazz, you can play any note you like moving the line around. In Classical, you can't. It is 'Jail' as far as that is concerned. A Bass tuned in 5ths to Low C is just another method of avoiding playing a 5-string Bass. I think!

[Ken Smith]

I just pulled up a page from Joel Quarrington's website. Have a look at it and lets talk about this some more.

Currently as of an hour ago, I have two Basses in the shop tuned in 5ths using the regular strings for experimental purposes only. They are my Batchelder with Superflexibles and a Corsini with Helicore Orchestra Strings.

[Ken Smith]

I just emailed Joel and then found his FAQs which answer some of my questions..oops!

[Paul Warburton]

[quote=Ken Smith;5433]
Joel has a fine old Bass but I'm am not sure if it is a G.P. Maggini, a Santo Maggini

[quote]
G.P.Maggini

[Ken Smith]

[quote=Paul Warburton;5981][quote=Ken Smith;5433]
Joel has a fine old Bass but I'm am not sure if it is a G.P. Maggini, a Santo Maggini

G.P.Maggini

Not sure what your post is about Paul but I do have an update about his Bass. We recently exchanged emails about 5ths, basses and mutual acquaintances. It turns out that although either of the two names listed above have been used for his Bass with the Santo Mag. used as a default for G.P., it is not actually known who made his Bass or even where it was made. It is also possible that it is a British Bass as well. So, there you have it..