The Bass in Fifths

[Jeff Moote]

I don't know how into podcasts you folks are, but if you look up NACOcast (put on by Chris Millard, principal Basoon of the NAC Orchestra) there's a great interview with Joel about fifths (though it's not done with bassists as the intended audience). He talks about his bass a bit on there.

http://www.nac-cna.ca/en/multimedia/podcasts/index.html: it's the 04.10.2006 NACOcast episode

Joel is playing regular 3/4 Dominants, so I'm guessing his string length is somewhere around 41-42" - anything longer than about 42.25" won't really work with those strings as far as I know.


As a side note, I've talked to my prospective new teacher and I will be starting studies though my university in the fall with him. He is a 4ths player though and through, but we talked a bit and he said if I want to try 5ths that he'd go with it. We agree on a few big tuning independent issues (use of extension fingerings/pivots, the amount of thought that should be given to Simandl, etc.) so I think it will go very well.

I'm hesitant still, but if I'm going to do it I should do so before I learn all the repertoire in fourths, and while I'm young and can learn quicker... we'll see!

[Andrew Downing]

I've just added a small amount of stuff to my profile. The string length on my German bass is just over 42", and the New Standard's string length is pretty close to that as well. I've never played Joel's bass, so I'm not sure what the string length is on that.

[Jeff Moote]

Well, I'm doing it... or at least collecting the necessary strings until I head to my luthier for a long overdue checkup and some minor work. I'll give it at least 6 months and if I'm really struggling at this point I guess it'll be back to fourths! I'll report back here after the change and once I've started with my new teacher in a month.


(if anyone has for sale a used or new Spirocore low C, new or like new Dominant solo F# and solo A please let me know)

[David Powell]

Originally Posted by Jeff Moote

Well, I'm doing it... or at least collecting the necessary strings until I head to my luthier for a long overdue checkup and some minor work. I'll give it at least 6 months and if I'm really struggling at this point I guess it'll be back to fourths! I'll report back here after the change and once I've started with my new teacher in a month.


(if anyone has for sale a used or new Spirocore low C, new or like new Dominant solo F# and solo A please let me know)

Have you ever heard "Life Cycles" by Dave Holland. He plays a cello on that album so it is a good example of a player crossing over into 5ths territory. It's a great album too. Good luck with the adventure. Keep us posted.

[Jeff Moote]

I haven't heard that album, but thanks for the recommendation - I'll check it out for sure. Just a side note: I don't usually care for bass type parts played on cello, whether that be in jazz, classical or whatever. I guess it's just the bassist in me, but I'd rather hear it played on a bass, and I'd even rather hear cello compositions at pitch on bass than a cellist if done well (e.g. Jeff Bradetich playing the Bach suites).

Anyway, back on topic I've ordered the strings along with the music for the Vanhal concerto. I'm crazy and have entered a concerto competition right when I'm switching to fifths (I'll have to have it ready for Jan 16), so with that plus my orchestra repertoire I certainly won't be short on practice material!

[David Powell]

I'm the same way;- a real low-lifer. Since I have adopted 5 strings with the low BB across all of my basses, I have transposed many of my lines to include the lowest notes possible. If you have a low C, check out Footprints played an octave lower than Ron Carter's line. It's more like "Hoof prints" . Try it also with a bow. Slower. Really dark, IMO. Different and cool spooky.

I've been really curious about how this harmonics / resonance phenomenon works with 5th tuning, so I am doing some ****ysis on the frequencies in the circle of fifths vs. those in the reciprocal circle of fourths. So far it appears that there may indeed be a difference. I'll let you know when I have something more definite. It's all math the way I see it, but how it it heard is more important.

[Jeff Moote]

Originally Posted by David Powell

I've been really curious about how this harmonics / resonance phenomenon works with 5th tuning, so I am doing some ****ysis on the frequencies in the circle of fifths vs. those in the reciprocal circle of fourths. So far it appears that there may indeed be a difference. I'll let you know when I have something more definite. It's all math the way I see it, but how it it heard is more important.

I agree that the perceived effect is more important, but moreso I too am into the math of it all. The tricky part is when you start mixing temperament systems which is inevitable since you choose the intonation based on what you hear. I think that's why some people look at the claims made by fifths players and think "no, that's all wrong because a fifth is just a fourth upside down" - well that's only so if you temper your intervals that way. This is also why I think practicing with a tuner to work on intonation is the worst idea ever - you end up with a 12ET sense of intonation which is useless unless you're playing with other 12ET instruments. Even though we often play with pianos, usually the strings grossly outweigh the piano in both numbers and sound, so you end up with a sort of mixed temperament where the pitch center is defined by the piano in whatever range it's playing, but all the interval relationships are locally tempered according to something more like just temperament. This is the reason I don't get too much into the actual math of trying to prove this or that about a given tuning for the bass - it all comes down to subjective factors which are simply the result of our subjective sense of intonation, even though each temperament can be explained easily with math when taken on its own.

[Johnny Layton]

Originally Posted by Jeff Moote

http://www.nac-cna.ca/en/multimedia/podcasts/index.html: it's the 04.10.2006 NACOcast episode

Hey Jeff thanks very much for this link I just found it while catching up to this thread (yeah, I admit it I usually speak before I think LOL).

Looking forward to Joel's method book!

[Jeff Moote]

Originally Posted by Johnny Layton

Hey Jeff thanks very much for this link I just found it while catching up to this thread (yeah, I admit it I usually speak before I think LOL).

Looking forward to Joel's method book!

You're welcome! Joel's method has been a long time coming but he says it's nearing completion now. I'm very much looking forward to it, as the only other bass method for fifths I know of is Denis Massuzo's book which seems very good and thorough for beginners, but not so much a comprehensive method as a guide to fingerings.


From the way Joel speaks about playing the bass I have no doubts his method will be a great resource for fifths tuning.