" Name That Bass " aka "This OLD Bass"

[Brian Glassman]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

The original internal construction, some of which only has 'scars' left in place is something else I have not seen in any other Bass or at least all of these in one single Bass. Clearly, this Maker made Viols in the olde English tradition which died out in the 18th century for the most part.

On the subject of Hill, I don't doubt him as a possibly either as well as Corsby. I just wish there were other Basses like it in some way to make better comparisons.

Well, yes. I think it's closer to that Joseph Hill bass than the Corsby. Are the F's that different? Imagine this Hill Bass w/ more rounded upper bouts..pretty close.

From the pics the back has an almost Pearwood look to it. Is it deffinately Sycamore? If so where else could there be fine Sycamore during that period?

It's shape deffinately doesn't point one way or another too clearly.
Is there anything else that points to some other early European school like Dutch or Scandinavian, Vienese? or does it only seem English or Germanic now?

Sounds like you'd need to explore that viol/gamba or bass violone transitional period a bit more, but I wouldn't leave out that same period in France either. I don't know now, the more I look at the your bass the more it's outline feels French to me.

W/ it's large dimensions and internal bracketing issues could it only be a true double bass or may it have actually been a modified later Bass Viola Da Gamba or "Bass Violone" of some type?

BG

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Brian Glassman

Well, yes. I think it's closer to that Joseph Hill bass than the Corsby. Are the F's that different? Imagine this Hill Bass w/ more rounded upper bouts..pretty close.

From the pics the back has an almost Pearwood look to it. Is it definitely Sycamore? If so where else could there be fine Sycamore during that period?

It's shape definitely doesn't point one way or another too clearly.
Is there anything else that points to some other early European school like Dutch or Scandinavian, Viennese? or does it only seem English or Germanic now?

Sounds like you'd need to explore that viol/gamba or bass violone transitional period a bit more, but I wouldn't leave out that same period in France either. I don't know now, the more I look at the your bass the more it's outline feels French to me.

W/ it's large dimensions and internal bracketing issues could it only be a true double bass or may it have actually been a modified later Bass Viola Da Gamba or "Bass Violone" of some type?

BG

I don't know how big a Bass Violone would be. I have seen only a few and only one was DB size. Viol d'Gambas were small like Cellos I think. As far as the English thing goes and not French or otherwise the materials and Viol construction all point to England according to Biase. On the Back wood, it is the same highly flamed Sycamore as seen on the inner Ribs. If it is French then it would be an 18th century Bass before all the Bernadel, Gand etc type makers with that Cello outline. This Bass from LeJeune (Paris, c.1785 from World of Basses, Germany) looks slightly similar and completely different that the later French Basses we are used to seeing. Look at the LeJeune and the Mystery Bass side by side!





On another website (Healey Violins, UK), we fine the exact Bass in different lighting and also dated c.1790.



On the LeJeune, it has a clear angle break in the upper bout and not a long gentle bend like my Bass.

[David Powell]

Is it possible to learn anything more definitive about the age of the top, perhaps through dendrochonology (I think that's the word), you know the way they look at annual rings and match them to the pattern in instruments with known dates of make.

It is plausible from the shape that it could be a converted violone. The back construction is more like a double bass though. There were not too many standardized forms of violones and there are records of very large violones with mensurs of up to 114 cm. In Bach's time in Germany the violone grosso was a four stringed instrument tuned in 4ths from low C. These were definitely double bass size instruments. Probably the reason not too many of these large violones are still around is because most of them might now be living out their lives as double basses. But were any of these in use in England and at what period and what configuration? Isn't the first reference to the "great dooble bass" pretty early on in England?

I'm thinking if there were a way to nail down the age of the top within a few years. Attributing the bass to a "best guess" builder would be easier if we knew when the tree lived. Even then, the wood could have been seasoned for many years before use. The age, the remnants of the original methodology of construction, the origin of the wood? I guess if there is no documentation at all, this is real detective work.

[Ken Smith]

My Bass would measure about 118-119cm or 121 or so over the buttton. The Top is over 119cm to the tip so the Back is close to that. I have heard of Violones in England as far back as the 17th Century but not much before that. I don't know what this was originally other that just 'BIG'.

On the Top age, we know it's from very old growth but being as wide as it is and relatively few cracks and no sinkage, it was something that was either well aged and/or something that came from an old Building and was cut way way before the bass was made. Luthier Peter Eibert told me the Top was so strong because or the winter growth rings combined with the species, age and grade of the Spruce combined. The 'patina' of the Top shows signs of a long life but part of it sheltered in storage. The Varnish is fantastic. Original golden Varnish under the later added red which almost looks original except for in a few spots. This Varnish has help to protect the instruments wood thus far.

I have owned many Basses in my life and have seen tons more. Nothing like this has ever crossed my path.

[Arnold Schnitzer]

French, early 19th century.

[Matthew Tucker]

I agree it looks french to me

OK the ffs don't match ... but the outline is close

7/8 french 1800

[Ken Smith]

While it does have some French flavoring it also has a lot of English on the interior not to mention the wood itself being English Sycamore on the Back and Ribs. Biase thinks it could be a French 'influenced' maker or even a Frenchman itself working in London.

Arnold, for education purposes mainly, please tell us how you will inspect this Bass inside and out to take another guess at its origin once the restoration is complete. This would be your first time seeing this Bass in person unless you have the chance to see it at Biase's shop before he has it all together.

What are the points you look at both directly and indirectly as well as overall?

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Matthew Tucker

I agree it looks french to me

OK the ffs don't match ... but the outline is close

7/8 french 1800

Matthew, I would also look at the edges, arching, upper and lower corners as well as the FFs. I have yet to see a French Bass with FFs like on mine. I agree the upper bout is close but only slightly in outline. In fact, they both look sort of Germanic which was a style both the English and French worked on as far as the Gamba model Basses.