" Name That Bass " aka "This OLD Bass"

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Matthew Tucker

I agree it looks french to me

OK the ffs don't match ... but the outline is close

7/8 french 1800

Matthew, I would also look at the edges, arching, upper and lower corners as well as the FFs. I have yet to see a French Bass with FFs like on mine. I agree the upper bout is close but only slightly in outline. In fact, they both look sort of Germanic which was a style both the English and French worked on as far as the Gamba model Basses.

[Ken Smith]

I agree that the Bass looks just about as French as it does English. I was reading now that one maker (Barbe Pere') gradually tapered the upper bout to the Neck without any angle bend. I have heard this trait before about the French. I am not 100% sure though that the Bend is original. Or is it?

If this is a French instrument (Bass or Violone), then who were the makers c.1800 (+/- 25 years est.) that might have made large Gambas like this? I wish I had as many books on French makers as I do of the English. Probably very few were written and even less written in English!

So, broadening the search to include France adds more possibilities. Now it seems that instead of looking for a Frenchman or French influenced maker working in England we are also be looking for a Frenchman with some use of the half-Purfled style (English Ink Back/Purfled Top) that 18th Century London had occasionally produced.

[Ken Smith]

I searched the Web for some Barbe basses and found these two of them. here they are along with my Bass for comparison;

(Barbe1/Mystery Bass)


(Barbe2/Mystery Bass)


(The Trio)


Your thoughts please?

[Charles Federle]

This bass is a mystery, my instinct tells me French, the body shape strongly seems French to me, but the F- holes really make it unusual. I think that I would really like to see it up close, mostly for the scroll and purfling. A friend of mine just picked a bass similar to this, in that it also has characteristics of English and French bass. The dealer was saying it was a English bass made for the French market. When I play it though and looked a bit closer it just seemed like it had to be French. Seems you might have a mystery on your hands similar to mine. Here is an Xavier Jacquet, his basses are also very similar to Barbe's, I have even compared two and they were identical almost.

http://www.worldofbasses.de/Instrume...Pillement.html

They are different, but similar in some ways as well. Granted it could just be my eyes and digital pictures not agreeing well. Right now, just by what I can see of the purfling I think this bass might be just at the turn of the 19th century or earlier.

[Ken Smith]

Are you talking about my Bass or your friends Bass? Mine has only Purfling on the top, wide Purfling. The Back has only a hint of paint. The Maple Scroll, although varnished over in dark red is most likely original to the Bass as it matches in character as well. It was a 3-string and then a 4-string.

I would like to see your friends Bass as well if possible..

[David Powell]

It is definitely similar to the Barbe basses Ken, but not the f's. It is also a bit stouter to my eye. The Barbe basses look narrower. The French maker in England or English maker in France does seem plausible. I was trying to think of why a French maker might wind up in England and then I remembered "A Tale of Two Cities". If the bass is from the late 18th century, the maker may have been a noble expatriate. I have no idea how one could get beyond the theory to a list of noble expatriates, but the French royalty must have had luthiers in employ if not in the royal family. Those were strange times for many of the French bourgeoisie. Many did leave France if they were affiliated with the royals. Perhaps the maker was wealthy and successful and felt the need to vacate. Do you think that was the period that the bass might have been made?

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by David Powell

It is definitely similar to the Barbe basses Ken, but not the f's. It is also a bit stouter to my eye. The Barbe basses look narrower. The French maker in England or English maker in France does seem plausible. I was trying to think of why a French maker might wind up in England and then I remembered "A Tale of Two Cities". If the bass is from the late 18th century, the maker may have been a noble expatriate. I have no idea how one could get beyond the theory to a list of noble expatriates, but the French royalty must have had luthiers in employ if not in the royal family. Those were strange times for many of the French bourgeoisie. Many did leave France if they were affiliated with the royals. Perhaps the maker was wealthy and successful and felt the need to vacate. Do you think that was the period that the bass might have been made?

Folks, there is very clear and documented history in the early/mid 19th century of several French Luthiers working and moving to England but very few moving 'to' France. I will try to list a few for this reference only but this Bass may easily date from an earlier period. It will show however the movement between the two countries.

Here is a short list of the French working in or moving to England;
G.A. Chanot III from Paris (and the Chanot family of makers. 7 listed in my records into the 20th century.)
Chas. Boullangier (worked for Edward Withers)
Chas. Maucotel (worked for Edward Withers)
Vincent Panormo of Italian dissent worked in Paris and then settled in London. He was back and forth a few times Paris-Dublin-London-Paris-London until he finally just stayed in London.
Bernhard Fendt Sr. was apprenticed to his uncle Francois Fent (French spelling) and remained in Paris until sometime after his death and in 1798 moved to London. The Fendts became one of the best family of makers London had ever seen ranking with makers like the Lott's (Lott Sr. trained by Fendt), Panormo's, Hill's, Forster's, Gilkes, Kennedy's and maybe a few more.

England to France;
The 2 sons of George Withers trained in Mirecourt and returned to work in Soho.
George Hart (I and/or II, son and grandson of John Hart), trained in Mirecourt and employed both French and English workman at 'Hart & Sons'.
'Jack' Lott (J.F. Lott jr.) was a good friend of J.B. Vuillaume and went back and forth for dealings in Paris and was Vuillaume's personal translator whenever he would visit London as he also spoke fluent French.

Paris and London were the two main centers for old Italian Violins in the world. John Hart of London and George Chanot I of Paris were the two best judges of old Italian fiddles in the early/mid 19th century. George Hart would follow in his fathers footsteps.

In some of my Books of British makers, the Frenchmen are not listed at all but rather mentioned only briefly under the Names/Shops they worked in. If I find any more names, I will add them to the list as well as any additional information of interest about the names already listed that worked in both England and France.

[Ken Smith]

My point for showing pics is to see the similarities as well as differences. Here are 3 Basses side by side. One is English (Corsby), one ??, and one French (Barbe). You can see that between the 'known' English and French Basses shown there are some similarities. The Mystery Bass is a bit in the middle and then some!



Now, have a look at the Mystery Bass between the Barbe (19th century) and the LeJeune (18th century) Basses;



(Sorry for the size differences. It's the best I can do pulling them from other websites with my limited web skills)..

So, how do they compare now?

[Ken Smith]

Just for fun, someone with some web skills take my Top and Back and photoshop in some Violin Corners on my Bass and post it. Then, tell me what it looks like. Imagine a police sketch artist adding a mustache, beard or glasses to a face to see what the person might look like as compared to without any of those features. Adding Violin Corners makes the Bass look completely different. The focus of my eye here at home when drawing it takes me away from the shoulders and more to the overall form. The upper bout easily converts with the points added but the softer lower bouts come out kinda pointy when changing the form. Just another something to have some fun with.

[Ken Smith]

I am having another look at this Bass as compared to mine. The Backs looks closer to each other than the Tops but it may be the FFs that are throwing me off. What do you guys think?

[David Powell]

About the only big difference that strikes me is the narrower waist on the other bass. It is a very similar outline and f's aren't that different. Bout proportions are somewhat different.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by David Powell

About the only big difference that strikes me is the narrower waist on the other bass. It is a very similar outline and f's aren't that different. Bout proportions are somewhat different.

The general outline is a bit similar. The slightly softer lower corners are what got my attention. Still, my Bass may be French and not English. Looking at the two Backs, mine seems to have seen more action and at least as old. The Bass next to it is listed as a Joseph Hill, London c.1765.

[Brian Glassman]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

The general outline is a bit similar. The slightly softer lower corners are what got my attention. Still, my Bass may be French and not English. Looking at the two Backs, mine seems to have seen more action and at least as old. The Bass next to it is listed as a Joseph Hill, London c.1765.

Yes, earlier in the thread I have made this comparison as well.The backs are very similar as are the soft lower bout corners. It may be just the photo, but the Hill bass top shape seems a bit more asymmetrical and "amorphous".

It's the most similar we've discussed, but even so, the shape of your bass still seems to have more of a French feel.

BG