Gut Thoughts for Orchestral Bowing

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by David Powell

Off and on I have this odd desire to string up my bass with guts and one friend of mine suggested strings made by Boston Catlines. Has anyone used those or heard of that maker??

I am not an "orchestra guy", but I favor arco playing in many different contexts where most players play pizz. I am a fan of the orchestra and of classical / baroque music. I also play a 5-stringer and understand bowing guts on that one will not be a walk in the park, so perhaps I am just entertaining a fantasy that requires an extra bass (or two). After reading so much about Dlugoleki and Gamuts, I wondered if anyone has experience with Boston Catlines?

Do you expect 'serious' strings made from a company with such a misguided name? Show me a Cat big enough to have Guts that can make a bass string! Can't? Then shop elsewhere. Anyway, they can't afford a website yet from the search I just made. Maybe they are just tying 2 or 3 Cats together for each string. Anyone missing a Cat out there? Ever hear a Sheep meow or a Cat baahhh?? Why wasn't the "Catgut Society" named the "Sheepgut Society"? All that research and they mislead you at the front door!..

For your quest Dave, look back at how the wound E-Gut was developed 200 years ago and you will see that it was not easy to get a note to sound at an even volume under the A. Now wound Gut Es are ok on some Basses but a B? That will be a challenge in two ways. First, find one! Second, try playing it. Did I mention a third way? Well if you think it's difficult finding a Bass with an even volume steel/metal low B bowed then good luck doing it on Gut.

Get a 4-string or maybe even a 4 with an Extension to go down. I called LaBella and asked for a set for an Extension and I might just get it. Now, which Bass of mine with an Extension can I spare for this quest and will that Bass be playable with Gut?

Ok, I will let the audience choose. Currently, only my Hart, Gilkes and Martini have Extensions. My full sized old English Gamba should be done soon but without an Extension. I think playing that monster as a normal 4-strings is enough of a challenge much lest reaching back for an Extension. Fingering and bowing Gut will be twice the challenge. The Storioni would be great if it were done but the Restoration is not even starting for awhile so that's at least 2 years out.

Choose between the 3 Basses above I first mentioned for a Gut-string Extension Orchestral Bass, and why! Yes, tell me why you made that choice. You may also ask questions here online about any of the 3 basses to help make your decision.

[David Powell]

So I take it this is the first you've heard of Boston Catlines, Ken? I think the name is a play on the ancient Italian name, and since the market is mostly period use on period reproduction instruments, the name is serious, if not reflective of the materials used now or then. You can reach Olav Chris Henriksen of Boston Catlines by e-mail at Calines@aol.com. It seems from my communications that he prefers to take custom orders over the telephone (I know;- that technology is ancient).


I was told his strings were the very very best available by a local Renaissance / Baroque instrument lutenist. I think I'll order a D/G plain gut pair and see what these are like since this supplier is obviously not too well known. And as always, I appreciate your informed precautions. Dlugolecki makes a wound string for violones in 80 gauge that is intended as a D string (baroque tuning) for 95-105 cm mensur. At 110 cm., same tension, that is a C string, which puts it only a half-step up from the low B. And then when you invoke modern A=440, it is even closer. So it might be a little loose, but a shade larger would be right on target, perhaps an 83 gauge?

I don't yet know of any plain gut strings that would come close to the low B at reasonable tension.

When I look at the attendant difficulties associated with 5 strings, I also look at historical violones with 6 strings (lowest tuning DD) and wonder how the increased difficulties were dealt with in those times. Perhaps it is in the way hair tension is achieved with the baroque style bows? Being able to vary the tension on the fly might be the answer. When is Katie Long going to pop in and enlighten us????

I do still have my old 4-stringer and maybe that would be the place to start, but I really want the low notes and the configuration/mensur I'm used to. Definitely a second DB is the answer. I need a spare 5-er anyway.

I do think the Catgut Society is called something else now, but we are getting off topic there. When I get a couple of the Boston Catline strings and bow on them, I'll check back in and report. I'll see what Olav thinks about the BB possibilities.

[Calvin Marks]

Ken, have you tried Damien Dlogolecki strings? I have a G and D on my bass right now because I'm doing some period playing, these strings are as good as it gets for an authentic baroque sound, they of course bow very nicely with a beautiful warm gut sound. Chi-Chi Nwanoku (Principal of the Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment) uses these strings...you should check out her website for sound clips...

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Calvin Marks

Ken, have you tried Damien Dlogolecki strings? I have a G and D on my bass right now because I'm doing some period playing, these strings are as good as it gets for an authentic baroque sound, they of course bow very nicely with a beautiful warm gut sound. Chi-Chi Nwanoku (Principal of the Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment) uses these strings...you should check out her website for sound clips...

Never tried them but I am looking for regular Orchestra Strings, not any specific 'period'. I have the Chordas on a Bass now and they are not so easy to play. I start rehearsals next week and 2 concerts after that. From the looks of it now, the Guts may not make it to the show!

[Calvin Marks]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

Never tried them but I am looking for regular Orchestra Strings, not any specific 'period'. I have the Chordas on a Bass now and they are not so easy to play. I start rehearsals next week and 2 concerts after that. From the looks of it now, the Guts may not make it to the show!

IMO Chorda's work better for jazz playing. Pirastro claims that they're an "authentic period instrument string" but I disagree...anything by Damian Dlugolecki or Aquila puts Chorda's to shame in every category. I don't think you'll find anyone playing in a section using pure gut strings today...I've seen a lot of section bassists use Eudoxa's and Olivs, but let's be honest...A Eudoxa is close to that good old beefy gut sound but it's no cigar for bach, handel, vivaldi, telemann. I take it you've tried Olivs Ken? These might be a good match for symphony playing, they blend well with steel and still have an attractive gut sound...kinda the best of both worlds.

If I can be completely honest with you, I have on my bass now a Eudoxa A, tuned to 415, I recently swapped it for a Dominant and the Dominant matched the unwound guts on top better. I really found there to be a huge gap in sound between natural gut and Eudoxa's/Olivs.

[Ken Smith]

Ok, I put the Chordas on a few days ago and they are no where near being settled in yet. Each day I tune them up about a half step as they seem to keep stretching.

They are on the thick side comparing them to the Labellas from what I can remember. They bow well on the G and D and pizz great. I put one coat of gel varnish on the plain G/D but I can't say if its better with or without having not tried them before hand.

The A plays better both Arco and Pizz than the E but I can't say that I have an optimum set-up with the Guts as far as the Bridge goes. The Nut (seems to be original) looks as if it was cut for Guts originally but I doubt the Bridge is original.

Tomorrow, Phil (Uncle Toad) will be 'In the House' for the day trying Basses so I will make sure to get his opinion on these strings.

For now as far as playing in an Orchestra I cannot see any advantages overall for playing on Guts. The top strings sound great and loud. For Pizz they have a nice thick 'pump'-type sound but the E seems weak or at lease hard to play and the A is just 'ok' nothing to write home about.

The Bass I am testing them on is a 1981 Italian Bass by Lombardi. The FlatBack and wide Ribs are made from plain type Poplar. The Top is a low arched flatsawn local type Fir or Pine. The String length on this 3/4 Bass is 41 1/2".

The test bass (Lombardi) is generally quite loud and slightly bright sounding as far as presence goes but not at all thin sounding. I thought this would be a good Bass for the test. I will let Phil throw in his 2 cents on it if he feels up to it.

[Ken Smith]

Ok, if anyone's still listening.. I did a rehearsal last Thursday night and Saturday morning with the Guts. After the Sunday Concert (the first of two Concerts), I questioned the other Bassists in the section and they think the Guts did just fine. Plenty of Pizz and Arco switching in this program especially in the 'West Side Story'. Steels would be better for some things but not all around. The Guts are way easier on my fingers for the Pizz. Also, we are playing outdoors so you don't hear the Bass coming back to you off a wall like in a regular indoor venue.

Tonight we did the second Concert at another Park and used the same Bass and strings. It was about the same results as Sunday (Fathers Day).

Although these may not be the best Guts for this Bass or for me on any Bass for that matter, I felt they had to be tested in action before passing judgment. I just wish I had a program to use the LaBellas on awhile back as I only played them in the office. Hopefully soon, I will test another set from them and try it on at least one Concert this time.

I am waiting for Labella to make me an Ext.E/C which I was told was possible. Then I will give it a better try the 2nd time around. Actually, I think I liked the Labella Guts a little more than the Chordas but it was well over a year ago and it was a different Bass as well. Not the best way to compare but it's all I can remember.

On the Lombardi Bass I had to move the Bridge up closer to the Fingerboard to raise the string height (after I set the sound post) because it was just too low and doesn't have any adjusters. I might just have Arnold make me a new Bridge soon without Adjusters for now and keep the Guts on this Bass. Moving the sound post closer to the Bridge (or vise versa actually) should probably help with a bad Wolf I have on the A-string. Also, making the string length longer (or where it should be) should help as well. Still, with all the 'fudging', I still enjoyed this experiment to date.

Also, I have been told that lighter weighted Basses are better candidates for Gut strings than heavier Basses. The Lombardi feel light in comparison to my other Basses so that's one of the reasons I picked it for the test.

Either way, it has been fun playing on these Guts for the last week in action. These Chordas are well made professional strings. Having very little to go by I can't say much more about them other than they sound nice and fat, like they look.. lol

[Pete George]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

...look back at how the wound E-Gut was developed 200 years ago and you will see that it was not easy to get a note to sound at an even volume under the A. Now wound Gut Es are ok on some Basses but a B? That will be a challenge in two ways. First, find one! Second, try playing it. Did I mention a third way? Well if you think it's difficult finding a Bass with an even volume steel/metal low B bowed then good luck doing it on Gut.

Ken, I've been wondering the same thing. I got in touch with Gerold Genssler in Berlin (the Velvet Strings alum and bassist behind the new -- and fantastic -- Sonores line of gut bass strings), and Gerold would be happy to make a low B. Having played for a few months on his long C/E on my 4-string, I'm very interested in trying it.

The Sonores "Drago Basso" (modern orchestra) wound-gut C/E is a very loud string, easy to bow, and no thicker than the Evah C/E.

If anyone can meet your challenge on a low B, my guess is that it's Gerold and Sonores. I'm sure it won't be cheap, but I expect that it will be well worth it.

[Pete George]

Update -- I've ordered a set of the Genssler/Sonores Drago Basso wound guts for my Elias 5-string. I will be very interested in how the B string plays. Will post more once it arrives and I've played it a bit.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Pete George

Update -- I've ordered a set of the Genssler/Sonores Drago Basso wound guts for my Elias 5-string. I will be very interested in how the B string plays. Will post more once it arrives and I've played it a bit.

Guts on a 5er? Wow, that's brave. They couldn't get a sound out of the E some 200 years ago and you're gonna try a gut B?

Well, depending on the 'gut core/wound silver' ratio it might work but even with full steels we have trouble with B strings..

Good luck.. let us know.

Also, new basses do not speak as clear on the bottom as older more seasoned instruments do.

A double challenge in my mind but then again, I don't know your bass at all. Just a guess.

[Arnold Schnitzer]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

Also, new basses do not speak as clear on the bottom as older more seasoned instruments do.

Evidence? Or just opinion?

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

Also, new basses do not speak as clear on the bottom as older more seasoned instruments do.

Originally Posted by Arnold Schnitzer

Evidence? Or just opinion?

Well, let me put this in better words then.

In my opinion, most new basses do not sound as well as they can as they will when they get old.

I have seen most new basses improve in tone and depth as they mature. Better made basses out of the 'shoot' are good on day one. On year 1, 2, 5, 10, 20 or 30, they are even better if maintained and played.

Older basses that are restored and have new wood in them mature and sound better than off the bench within 1-3 years. If rescued from older bad repair work, they can sound better straight off the bench. Still in that case, they will be even better after a few years when all of the repairs have 'gelled-in' with the older parts of the bass living as one.

I would have to say Arnold that my comment is part un-clear, part opinion and part experience.

If I didn't believe in the possibility of new Basses, I wouldn't have ordered one!

But hey, I have more experience with older basses and sometimes these sound best just before they are about to fall apart. That's where you come in... lol .. Heelllppppp

[Arnold Schnitzer]

Well done.

[Pete George]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

Guts on a 5er? Wow, that's brave. They couldn't get a sound out of the E some 200 years ago and you're gonna try a gut B?

Well, depending on the 'gut core/wound silver' ratio it might work but even with full steels we have trouble with B strings..

Good luck.. let us know.

Also, new basses do not speak as clear on the bottom as older more seasoned instruments do.

A double challenge in my mind but then again, I don't know your bass at all. Just a guess.

I've had the Genssler strings on the 5er for just a couple of days now, but so far, so good.

The low B works just fine. I'm not prepared yet to say it's the best low B I've played, but it's better than most. A lot of power, and pretty easy both to bow and finger.

And Ken, I don't know what new 5-strings you've played, but my 5-string Elias both speaks more clearly and is louder on the bottom than any other 5-string I've ever played, including a Prescott, a couple of Pohlmanns, and some other 5s by good makers, old and new. It's easier to play and sounds better than most good 4-strings.

I might end up liking the Spiro Mittel low B more, but I doubt it will be by a lot (if at all). The rest of the strings are what I expected of Genssler strings -- very, very good if that's the kind of string you want.