Some questions about a bass

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Fernando González

Thanks Ken!!!

What is about shorten the string lengt one or two cm? Probably moving the bridge could be enough.

Here in Spain you can´t see a lot of good basses. I mean REALLY good basses, so I´ll to learn to identify then by photos or books. I´m very interested on it.
Sometime I read in double bassist that a good orquestra brought good basses for the players. In Spain most orquestras have new instruments, Poellmann, Nogaro, Gruenert and so, but never you can see an old italian bass.

Regards,

Fernando.

First off, how about finding an old Spanish Bass? Not all of them are Guitar shaped but even if they are, if it sounds good, play it.

One reason for the lack of Basses is that either people took them out already and bought them years ago or people didn't go get them and buy them like many dealers did here in USA in the last 50 years.

On the shortening problem just looking at your Bass doesn't give me all the measurements I would use to plan that out. If the Top is healthy with no sinkage near the Bridge feet and you have some room like you do from the feet to the upper F-eyes then try just moving the Bridge up along with the soundpost in proportion and see how the mensur is then.

Is the Neck a D or Eb at the heel? How long from the Nut to the Neck touching the Block? How long from the end of the Neck at the Block measuring on the Top to the top of the bridge foot? How far out from the Top is the underside of the Fingerboard (aka Neckstand)? What is the exact string length now?

Basically, give me/us a Map of measurements of your Bass concerning the Length so good advice can be given.

A False Nut can be a good fix or a bad fix. This depends on the note-stop you have at the Heel and where you reach the F# as well. You should be able to reach for the F# with your 4th finger while your thumb is still on the Heel and your hand can touch the shoulder, not reaching over it. If not, it is too far away. A False Nut pushes the notes further towards the Bridge. Moving the Bridge up moves the notes closer to the Nut.

Also, concerning the Neckstand, it would be good to know what your string heights are and how tall your Bridge is in the center off the Top at those heights. Often, a corrected Neck stand can make a huge difference. I witnessed this personally with my Gilkes. It's barely a 41" mensur (depends on the tilt of the Bridge and feet, could go a tad shorter) with a proud D-Neck. The overstand (neckstand) was very low/shallow before it was restored by Arnold/AES. When I would try to play the harmonics over the Bridge on the Dragonetti, I was up on my toes and I'm 6ft tall with fairly long arms. The 8" Ribs (7 1/2" at the Neck) don't help much either but that's the Bass. The Neckstand can be moved and improved for playability.

Here's some pics of the before and after. The Neck before was out only about 13mm from the Top if I recall correctly. Now it's about 35mm or so. Please excuse the poor views as the shots were not taken to show the neckstand (distance from the Top).


For a bass to play its best, everything about it need to be just right! The Gilkes went from one of the hardest Basses to get around to my favorite go-to Bass when I have something difficult so play. We call that a 360, a complete turn-a-round.

[Fernando González]

Hello!!

The measurements of the bass are as follows:

The neck is a Eb quite low at the heel, almost in the middle betwen D and Eb. From Nut to final neck 46,5 cm.
From Neck to feet 58,8 cm.
Neckstand now 25 mm, apears to be was corrected with a wedge that is almost the half of this....And not a very fine job.



String lenght 108,5 cm.
Bridge lenght ,top to bridge center 166 mm.
Distance of F-Holes 164 mm.
Back lenght 115,3 cm

When I brought it, it was very easy to play. I lower the saddle just to give more tension and fit a thick strings. The bass is still soft to play but I think now the sound has more fat, more orquestral sound. I´m not an expert but I always thought the bass can be a "powerfull cannon" with a correct fit.

Your Gilkes is very nice. The maple of the neck looks great!!
Later I´ll put some photos of my Poellmann bass. It has also nice woods.
I´m vey happy with it!!

Regards ,

Fernando.

[Ken Smith]

Ok.. With the pics and the numbers I think I know a little more now. Your Bridge is a good height but the neckstand is still shallow. The Wedge is common because it is easier to do than remove the neck, add a button and re-fit the neck. That would be better but more expensive. Also, I believe your Neck is pitched back some. This does two things and the Shim under the fingerboard may have been put to help this along. The pitched back Neck helps to raise up the bridge height and can also slightly lengthen the mensur/string length as well.

To fix and get to under 107cm or 106.5, the easiest is the Bridge moved up to sit above the F-notches, not on the centers. Being that you are between a D and Eb Heel, a false Nut would help correct that to a D and also shorten the mensur as well.

I did this 'exact' same thing on my Loveri. It was over 109cm (43" or so) and I wanted it under 42"/-107. The Heel stop was also between a D and Eb just like your Bass so, I made a false Nut for it and moved the bridge feet up. I ended with about 41.5"/105.4 or so and a D-Neck as well.

Look at the pics here of the way it was after my work;


How does this affect the sound? Well, the longer string length is a looser feel and deeper sound but only slightly. The shorter length is tighter and more focused sounding, slightly only again.

With a good sounding Bass, playability is more important than 10% of sound difference. If you can't play the Bass, what good is it to you?

Remember to move the soundpost as well when you 'cheat' the Bridge forward.

This Loveri by the way was recently sold to a fine professional Orchestral player working in Europe. He sounds way better than I ever did on the Bass. I am glad the Loveri has a new home now. Buying old un-playable or barely-playable Basses and restoring them gives me great joy when the conclusion is a new home with a pro orchestra player and a renewed life for the Bass as well. That's what it's all about!

[Fernando González]

Thanks Ken.
I have one more question. If you want to enlarge the neckstand to 30 mm (as for example has my Poellman), do you keep the same bridge height? or do you mantain the angle and therefore you raise the brigde height? In this case a little more pressure on the top won´t be a trouble.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Fernando González

Thanks Ken.
I have one more question. If you want to enlarge the neckstand to 30 mm (as for example has my Poellman), do you keep the same bridge height? or do you mantain the angle and therefore you raise the brigde height? In this case a little more pressure on the top won´t be a trouble.

That I believe is a question for Arnold. He re-worked both of my recent Pollmanns and would be better if he answered that. If you move the Neck out and leave the same angle the Bridge will rise. Usually on most German Basses and even on Pollmanns they can benefit from a higher Bridge as many of them the height is barely 6" (152.4mm). Again, current measurements would help to determine what is needed. If the angle is too steep and the bridge height is already good, reducing the angle of the Neck pitch at the block might be necessary.

[Fernando González]

Thanks Ken!!!
What is the correct angle of the neck? Does it depends of another measurements of the bass or there is, more or less, a standart?

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Fernando González

Thanks Ken!!!
What is the correct angle of the neck? Does it depends of another measurements of the bass or there is, more or less, a standart?

This, I do not know. What I do like is about 35mm or overstand and 6.5 - 7" of Bridge height. The height depends on the Arch of the Bass as well as the feel of each individual instrument.

When a Luthier knows the actual Bass well, he can usually do his best job to make corrections and adjustments.