To Cut, or Not to Cut? (TB Save)

[Ken Smith]

Member Question; The string length is only a huge deal in the bottom few positions, as the 'box' of a full step multiplied against string crossings can get big, so what can be done is to tighten up the string spacing just a bit and the long string is again playable. By the 2nd position or so the difference between 42" and 43" is almost unnoticeable.

I am not 100% sure of all the types of gigs you play but when you are playing Cello parts in Mozart and Beethovan pieces, String length is a Huge factor. I had a bit of trouble playing the 5th with the Morelli as it required alot of stretching and pivoting. Intonation was on the fence being so exposed in the solo sections with the Cellos. My Bass was almost 2x as loud as anyone else in the section as well. This will be an Orchestral Bass only for me and playing some of the great Symphonies is tough enough with a 41 1/2" string length let alone anything way bigger. The Shoulders?, that's another issue. In classical pieces we go up to C and D fairly often in the thumb position and occassionally higher. I just want the Bass in the best possible playing condition and size so it stays in use and not in a basement or attic again like it did most of last century due to its unwiedly size.

[Ken Smith]

Member Question; I wasn't thinking of conserving the neck block, more of the potential of reshaping a new one so that for example the ribs could almost be let into the block like some self-neck basses. In other words, the ribs would not sweep upwards towards the heel, more rounded, a bit like your Dodd. I am thinking that this could allow you to set the neck much deeper while retaining the heel projection and most of the outline of the front plate. does that make sense?

The Block has to be lower into the bass by about 1/2" and big enough to set the neck in deeper. Currently the Bass is modified from and English Gamba style "Neck-thru" blockless type as so described in the Book 'The Brittish Violin'. The book shows an 18th century Violin made like this.

This is the Morelli before the block-cut, http://www.kensmithbasses.com/Double...s/fullback.jpg
http://www.kensmithbasses.com/Double...es/pufling.JPG

And this is it after the cut, http://www.kensmithbasses.com/Double...images/693.jpg
http://www.kensmithbasses.com/Double...images/688.jpg
http://www.kensmithbasses.com/Double...images/705.jpg
http://www.kensmithbasses.com/Double...images/692.jpg

The Block area would be flatter than before with wide Ebony strips covering the top view of the Block that the Ribs do not cover as seen in the 'after' photos. The Ribs will be cut back just a bit to allow for this lower set block. Currently the Neck just sits up on the Ribs with only a Dovetail going into the shallow block.

If I can, I will go into NY soon and take some pics while the Bass is still apart. I wish I had done this before any work was started when it first came apart just for comparison purposes.

[Ken Smith]

This is the b4 and after from the sides to compare.

Before; http://www.kensmithbasses.com/Double...ages/Rside.JPG
http://www.kensmithbasses.com/Double...ages/Lside.JPG

After; http://www.kensmithbasses.com/Double...images/700.jpg
http://www.kensmithbasses.com/Double...images/707.jpg

After the Cut, the upper Ribs are slightly shorter going up into the Neck.

[Ken Smith]

What I was proposing with the string spacing at the nut (and bridge) was specifically meant to address things like open 5ths. The diagonal from an Eb on the D string to the Bb on the G string, for instance, can be alleviated greatly if the D and G strings are closer together. This adjustment can make a 43" bass feel a helluva lot shorter.

Two things, though: If you get the strings too close together at the bridge you can have trouble getting a clean bite with the bow on the middle strings in TP, especially if you play the strings high. At the other end you if you get them really close, it'll take you some practice to get the string that you want with the left hand (old dogs, new tricks).

I used to have a beautiful Italian Bass that was cheated at the bridge to be almost 42" SL. I used a very close string spacing as well. When I recently re-united with Paul Biase I asked about the fate of my old Bridge with the pickup installed in it that I personally did in 1974. Paul sold my Bass in the early for me '90s after my playing retirement in 1988. Paul said, it's right here in my cabinet and sent it to me. I measured the width of the slots only to find they were from 23.5-24mm center to center. That's a bit under an inch (25.4mm). Arnold sets my Bridges at about 27mm for the Orchestral Basses. The 5er is about 25.5-26mm and that feels tight to me now. Back then, I didn't play in a Symphony so my bowing on jobs was minimal. Now I can see how 26-27mm is closer to normal when sawing away with an Orchestra. True it feels smaller if tighter spaced but intonation is not an option for me. I'm sure you know what I mean Ray but thanks for the suggestion in either case.

Looks a very clever way to achieve what you are after. Does the bass feel any different to play with such a shallow heel after the "block cut"? I mean, around the neck joint?

What are the two dots near the button on the Morelli? Mere decoration, or registration pins??

I didn't play the Morelli at all before it was altered. It too was unplayable when I got it as a trade in part for a Bass I sold. My old Italian had a wide Block cut-like heel and felt great as the Morelli did. Not really a fell thing as much as a survival thing to have a playable Bass. As far as the pins go, yes they must be for location for the back removal as they were there when I got the Bass.[/quote]
I have made a few False Nuts myself in the past but this works only on Eb neck stops. When you do this, you are pushing the F#, G etc higher up and harder to reach. I usually go for a D-stop at the heel and go from there. Cheating the Bridge is something done more commonly and works to a degree but if you take a good look at this Bass, the distance from the F notches to the bottom of the neck is about 2" longer than average. The top of this Bass is even longer than my Prescott and that beast is a challenge to reach anything past the heel and have it in tune until you get used to it. This Bass on the other hand has even wider upper bouts as well so making it playable is most important to me. The restoration cost for this Bass is more than the average Bass costs as was the Prescott. The Gilkes restoration is not far behind and I can only imagine what it will run for the Fendt to be put back into service. Playability is a must here. This is a serious Bass and if the Shoulders need to be cut down the road, they will get cut just like all the other old English and Italian Basses that grace todays professional Orchestras. This is one monster of a Bass and my goal here is to get it into top playing condition.

(Shortening the String length) I've seen a couple of female bassists have their string length shortened to accommodate their smaller hand size.

They had the fingerboard at the scroll-end cut about 2 cm short, then they had an extended nut made to fill up that 2 cm gap. The nut looked a bit like a mushroom or a fat letter "T".

Also, the bridge is moved up about 1.5 cm as well with the f-hole nicks lined up with the bottom of the bridge feet rather than in the middle. Viola, the string length is 3.5 cm shorter (1.38 inches). 44" - 1.38" = 42.62"; 43" - 1.38" = 41.62"

This saved the bass from having to go through major surgery or being permanently altered.

I have made a few False Nuts myself in the past but this works only on Eb neck stops. When you do this, you are pushing the F#, G etc higher up and harder to reach. I usually go for a D-stop at the heel and go from there. Cheating the Bridge is something done more commonly and works to a degree but if you take a good look at this Bass, the distance from the F notches to the bottom of the neck is about 2" longer than average. The top of this Bass is even longer than my Prescott and that beast is a challenge to reach anything past the heel and have it in tune until you get used to it. This Bass on the other hand has even wider upper bouts as well so making it playable is most important to me. The restoration cost for this Bass is more than the average Bass costs as was the Prescott. The Gilkes restoration is not far behind and I can only imagine what it will run for the Fendt to be put back into service. Playability is a must here. This is a serious Bass and if the Shoulders need to be cut down the road, they will get cut just like all the other old English and Italian Basses that grace todays professional Orchestras. This is one monster of a Bass and my goal here is to get it into top playing condition.

[Ken Smith]

Member Question; It sounds to me like the shoulder cut is the only option that really fixes the problem, the rest only kind of seem to address the problem. You could try the other ideas, but I suspect you'll have the rib cut performed eventually. Not only will it have a more friendly string length, but the shoulders will be a little more accesible. As much as I hate to see such an old bass getting cut up, I would hate it more if no one used it because it was too awkward an intrument. I wouldn't say I'm very qualified to make such a recomendation, but you asked for our opinions...

Yes, I did ask and I like hearing all sides of the argument. That was the reason I posted this in the first place. I know there are 4/4 Basses sold new today with 44" string lengths but I doub't anyone is buying them to play in an Orchestra Professionally.

In my opinion, the only way to make this a playable under 42" SL Bass IS to cut the shoulders and re-bend the Ribs to match the new Top and Back cut/curve. My intention at this point is to do as much as possible to make it playable to a degree so it CAN be Cut in the future if the Bass passes on to someone else. There are some big guys out there and maybe one will knock on my door looking for a Bass like this at the time I decide it's too much for me to handle. That person will appreciate that fact that I didn't cut the Bass. As I stated earlier, it was my only old Orchestral sized bass when I first bought it and I wanted it to be right for me and my hands. Since then I have bought some other Basses that I like better as-is for all around playing. This would become my big Plush Orchestral Bass for when I don't need to play up high and don't need a low C extension either. Just a big fat plush sounding Orchestral bass to play and have fun with. I can manage a SL over 42" for those occassions but prefer not to for my everyday use.

I recently when thru 3 other biggies while this one has been in restoration. The Dodd was big to play but the SL was only 41.5". The Morelli was close to 42.5" and the Prescott just under 42". All three had their challenges to play them. The Morelli was long and slightly big at the shoulders. The Dodd was shaped like a Violin and getting over the shoulders was not so easy for me. the Prescott is just HUGE all around. If I didn't have this Bass, I would probably keep the Prescott but there is only room for one Biggie in my rack. With 2 of the 3 gone, the Prescott will go up to Arnolds shortly and look for a new home to be welcomed in. The Mystery Bass, now believed to be Olde English, will take its place as my 'Big Gun' when the Buffalo come to town so to speak.

I want to make it somewhat playable now and preserve it for those times a big Bass is needed or wanted. Now that my Gilkes is near completion and the Fendt in the wings, I no longer need to cut this bass down to a smaller bass and do the Dragonetti on it. If I can reach the D or and play Ottello or Lt. Kije on it, I will be happy.

[Ken Smith]

Member Question; I vote to preserve all that is original or altered on any bass that comes in your possession. I know it is tempting to make it playable to your specs but this is history and too much of it is already gone. I say don't cut it, re-bend it. Some day the bass world will thank you.

So what are you saying then?

Being it is a Mystery Bass to all that have seen it, please help me out with the History on it if you know something.

I am trying to make it playable again. I don't know anyone who would use it as it was. It was laying in a basement for most of the 20th century because it was unplayable. It fell apart, ribs peeling off the blocks, coal dust filling the cracks... etc..

No one I know will or can play a Bass this size in a modern Orchestra with a 46" Top (up to the neck only, 47" to the tip) and upper bouts almost 22" with high shoulders and a 44" string length. these measurements ARE the reason why it was not played much in the last 100 years. I plan on changing that.

[Ken Smith]

Member Comment; Don't mess with the mensur. If you don't want it Ken, I'll take it off your hands

If only you could have held this Bass on the floor before it was taken apart. I don't know if you realize just how big it is but by most charts I have seen, it's a full 4/4 sized Bass and with some careful block area cutting we can make it a very playable Bass just like the Prescott is today that I have.

I had an offer 2 years ago for the Bass as-is and again recently from the same person who likes 'em big. This is however a 200 year old English Bass and tonally will rank easily with my Gilkes, Fendt and recently owned Dodd. The offer for this as-is with almost 10k of work into it was slightly less than half of what I was willing to let it go for. The potential value of this Bass fully restored is quite high so selling as-is will be at about 75% of it's value. If you are serious about this, PM me but in advance I will tell you that you can buy a new car for the price of this Bass as-is so check out your wheels and let me know.

To play this Bass at it's current size in the Orchestra would be punishment. It's bigger than my Prescott which is also classified as a 4/4 and it was cut about 160 years ago from even a bigger size. This English Bass however has an advantage to the player and that is weight. It is not that heavy as compared to it's size. This is due to the lighter Sycamore Back and Ribs instead of regular European Maple or in case of the Prescott, instead of its heavy Curly New England Sugar Maple.

So I can see your cause now being 'Save that Bass' from 'Cut that Bass'. I wanna save a Player and get the Bass back into permanent use in an Orchestra or at the least as planned from the start, 'My Orchestral Bass'. Selling it was never my intention when I bought this Bass. Biase took on this Job as a personal favor to me and not as a business venture.