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Old 02-23-2017, 04:32 PM
Sid Sagee Sid Sagee is offline
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Default Bass Identification

Hi Ken
I bought a bass back in 2003 in Switzerland before moving to Rome, Italy.
Both the seller and i have no idea of it's origins, age and maker.
Hoping you can give me some useful info
Cheers
Ron

P.S
Attached you will find some photos of my bass
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Last edited by Sid Sagee; 02-23-2017 at 04:46 PM.
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  #2  
Old 02-23-2017, 08:45 PM
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Ken Smith Ken Smith is offline
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Question humm....

I think its from the Czech size of the German border. Or German. Early 20th century, before 1950.
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Old 02-24-2017, 05:06 PM
Sid Sagee Sid Sagee is offline
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Hey Ken
Thanks for your info but this bass is from the 1800's. A few reputable luthiers, one here in Canada and one in Italy have seen the bass and mentioned that it was most probably from the 1800s and worth about $25,000. I still have to find an expert evaluator to hopefully find out the maker and its exact age. The bass is a 7/8 size.
Cheers

Last edited by Sid Sagee; 02-24-2017 at 05:22 PM.
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Old 02-25-2017, 05:54 AM
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Default Naaa

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sid Sagee View Post
Hey Ken
Thanks for your info but this bass is from the 1800's. A few reputable luthiers, one here in Canada and one in Italy have seen the bass and mentioned that it was most probably from the 1800s and worth about $25,000. I still have to find an expert evaluator to hopefully find out the maker and its exact age. The bass is a 7/8 size.
Cheers
Naa, I don't see that at all. The scroll and tuners are 20th century. The Top of the bass looks like others I have seen from c.1900-1930s.

When basses like this get played and travel around, they get old fast. Finer handmade basses stay loner with each owner and seem to stay in good health like being used in an Orchestra hall for 10-40 years or so and not knocked around as much.

I doubt there is an actual maker for this bass or others like it as these are made in shops with many workers and out workers.

Look at my Lowendall if you get a chance. 1910 and has been repaired all over the top. The roundback is many times more durable and healthier than if it were a thin flatback. Construction matters as does the care of a bass.

If you go to sell this bass to a dealer, see how fast their opinions will change as well as the price.

Here are some German Basses of mine and maybe a Czech or two to compare ages and wear.
http://www.smithbassforums.com/showthread.php?t=2450
http://www.smithbassforums.com/showthread.php?t=2635
http://www.smithbassforums.com/showthread.php?t=2666
http://www.kensmithbasses.com/double...ian/index.html
http://www.kensmithbasses.com/double...ner/index.html
http://www.kensmithbasses.com/double...ack/index.html
http://www.kensmithbasses.com/double...man/index.html
http://www.kensmithbasses.com/double...ert/index.html
http://www.kensmithbasses.com/double...ald/index.html
http://www.kensmithbasses.com/double...ead/index.html
http://www.kensmithbasses.com/double...bel/index.html
http://www.kensmithbasses.com/double.../tyrolean.html
http://www.kensmithbasses.com/double...ina/index.html
http://www.kensmithbasses.com/double...gue/index.html


These are just a few of the basses I have sold or still have (a few in stock). I have seen many many more. When you buy your bass from a shop, the appraisals are often way inflated to justify what you paid. Try getting 25l or even half of that for you bass and see what happens. Unless it is something special, you wont see that kind of money.

When you buy a diamond ring, they give you an appraisal for much more. If that value is true, then why was it sold for less from the shop?

It is easy to get caught up in values when you get a bass but like I said before, unless it is something special, big prices are not easy to get.

Some of the more common looking Flatbacks I have sold were in the 3-5k range. Why? Well, there are very common and also they need a lot of repairs. Take for instance that neck repair on the back of your bass. Is it grafted inside the back far down so that it holds the neck like an intact unbroken back button area does? Right there, that's a huge expense to re-do if not expertly done structurally as well as cosmetically. Looks alone does not make a healthy instrument!

Oh, and 7/8ths size? Basses in Europe IF sized like commercial German/Czech basses are 1/2, 3/4 and 4/4. There are no 5/8ths or 7/8ths basses, UNTIL they hit North America. Then, they are re-sized for marketing. 1/2 becomes 5/8 because no one wants a 1/2 size and 4/4 becomes 7/8 because 4/4 is too big. lol.. Same bass, new size!
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Old 02-25-2017, 01:59 PM
Sid Sagee Sid Sagee is offline
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Hi Ken
When you say that when one buys a bass from a shop they tend to inflate the value of the bass to justify what one has paid, in my case, the seller did not tell me what the bass was worth to justified what I paid nor did he know where the bass was from or anything.
When I told you that I had my bass looked at by 2 renowned luthiers, there opinion was strictly on looking at the bass and giving their opinion on age and price. One of these luthiers who is from Montreal is Mario Lamarre and if you are hip to serious luthiers these days, he is one of the best in Canada and highly considered around the world. The other luthier who saw my bass in Italy is Sergio Scaramelli who is one of the heavy luthiers in Ferrara, Italy who also builds double basses and does restoration.
I can't believe that having had the bass looked at by these world class luthiers that they could be off almost a hundred years compared to your opinion about my bass. As far as price goes, you say you have sold similar instruments for 5 or 6 thousand dollars in the past which if someone would offer me such an amount I would burst out laughing and walk out obviously.
I respect your experience, name and opinion but have difficulty accepting your evaluation and the age of my instrument. Maybe since the two luthiers I mentioned, had the bass in front of them and weren't dealing with photos such as the ones I sent you and therefore they had a better view of the instrument and were able to understand a bit more about this instrument.
I really am not trying to deny your expertise in anyway since you also have been in the business for quite some time and have seen many basses in your lifetime. I just don't get the huge difference in opinion you have given me.
Respectfully Yours.

P.S.
When I said 7/8 I was talking American since we are in America and since 4/4 is not a term used very much anywhere these days.

Last edited by Sid Sagee; 02-25-2017 at 02:17 PM.
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Old 02-25-2017, 03:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sid Sagee View Post
Hi Ken
When you say that when one buys a bass from a shop they tend to inflate the value of the bass to justify what one has paid, in my case, the seller did not tell me what the bass was worth to justified what I paid nor did he know where the bass was from or anything.
When I told you that I had my bass looked at by 2 renowned luthiers, there opinion was strictly on looking at the bass and giving their opinion on age and price. One of these luthiers who is from Montreal is Mario Lamarre and if you are hip to serious luthiers these days, he is one of the best in Canada and highly considered around the world. The other luthier who saw my bass in Italy is Sergio Scaramelli who is one of the heavy luthiers in Ferrara, Italy who also builds double basses and does restoration.
I can't believe that having had the bass looked at by these world class luthiers that they could be off almost a hundred years compared to your opinion about my bass. As far as price goes, you say you have sold similar instruments for 5 or 6 thousand dollars in the past which if someone would offer me such an amount I would burst out laughing and walk out obviously.
I respect your experience, name and opinion but have difficulty accepting your evaluation and the age of my instrument. Maybe since the two luthiers I mentioned, had the bass in front of them and weren't dealing with photos such as the ones I sent you and therefore they had a better view of the instrument and were able to understand a bit more about this instrument.
I really am not trying to deny your expertise in anyway since you also have been in the business for quite some time and have seen many basses in your lifetime. I just don't get the huge difference in opinion you have given me.
Respectfully Yours.

P.S.
When I said 7/8 I was talking American since we are in America and since 4/4 is not a term used very much anywhere these days.
I know them both, Sergio I know in person. I did not see the bass in person so I can't tell what they can tell. Looking at the bass inside and out gives you more info than a few pics. The scroll button looks Czech as does rest of the bass, just across the German border.

Did you like the pics I showed you and haw they matched up? Older basses show playing wear. Your bass doesn't seem to have met with a Bow all that often as there is no edge wear that I could see. There was no Jazz in the 1800s.

So, my opinion is just that, my opinion from your pics and my experience.
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Old 02-25-2017, 04:30 PM
Sid Sagee Sid Sagee is offline
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Hey Ken
Yes thanks for your photos. As you say: They ( Lamarre and Scaramelli) got to see the bass and not photos, so they had a better perspective on being able to give their opinion on age and pricing. I never said nor did anyone else that my bass was a collectors item but then again it ain't any old cheap german bass just because you say it seems to not have been played with a bow very much during it's existence from just looking at a photo. We both know that the instrument was not in the best hands for a longest period of time which is obvious by some bad repair jobs, therefore its value may not be in the high ranking ones but if what Scaramelli says about it being from the 1800s is true then the instrument is worth a lot more than 5 or 6 thousand dollars as you say considering any decent instrument today sells for double that amount let alone something from the 1800s.
Everyone on the planet knows that there was no jazz in the 1800s. Not sure if you're pulling my leg or think I'm from another planet or what regarding this matter but in any case, most jazz player starting from the 1920s who not much later on got to travel and managed to buy great old Italian and French basses for peanuts compared to today and hardly ever played those instruments with a bow and so, almost 100 years later (2017) I would doubt if anyone could spot how much those basses were bowed after all this time considering all the various repairs that have been done to these instruments after all these years.
Please correct me if I'm wrong !!!
After all of this being said and as you say they got to see the bass so, it ain't fair on my part to just throw some photos at you for a realistic evaluation.
Thank you so much Ken for your expertise and time. Very kind and generous of you to spend this time in helping me out.
Cheers.

Last edited by Sid Sagee; 02-25-2017 at 04:42 PM.
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Old 02-25-2017, 07:08 PM
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This is gong way off topic but, what jazz players from the 20s had old Italian or French basses? Most of them had German and Czech basses. Very few did not.

If you bow at all, you know that the tip and the frog hits the bass now and then. When I see a bass with clean edges, I am suspicious of its age.

Many of the better Jazz Players were also classically trained and learned with a Bow as well.
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Old 02-26-2017, 11:04 AM
Sid Sagee Sid Sagee is offline
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-I said that not long after the 20s, in the 40s musicians started traveling to europe and many bought italian and french basses.
-Jazz bassists in general played as much bow as the chinese from china eat hamburgers. In general enough bowing to get by except for the few exceptions in the jazz world.
Therefore many old basses in general that ended up in the hands of jazz players, hadn't been touched with a bow in a 100 years.

-The original subject was about the origin of my bass and age. Then bow hits on the body of basses entered the discussion when none where spotted on mine making it apparently a bass from the early 20th century which it is not.
Cheers !!!
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