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  #61  
Old 02-20-2011, 11:44 AM
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Lightbulb >> about Ludwig Neuner..

I just read this on line so I thought it would be good to share. His name is quite famous but where he came from and what he did prior to earn his reputation is different depending on the author. This paragraph is on line at ricercare.com but is copied from the Henley book and is the most comprehensive information I have seen to date on him. Reading also from Jalovec makes the information on Neuner unanimous.

"NEUNER, LUDWIG
Most brilliant representative of the family. Born at Mittenwald, 1840. Trained in the workshop of his father Johann; worked with Andreas Engleder at Munich, also studied ’cello playing with Werner at the Conservatorium. Proceeded to Vienna where he was assistant to Gabriel Lembock; then spent six years under the guidance of J. B. Vuillaume at Paris; also continued his ’cello studies by taking lessons from Franchomme. The cleverness of his subsequent work must be entirely attributable to the impressions gathered from the masterpieces continually passing through the hands of the eminent Frenchman. Worked a few months in London; opened an establishment at Berlin, 1867; worked there with two workmen until 1883. Death of brother and father necessitated his return to Mittenwald, where he took over the control of “Neuner and Hornsteiner”. Had branch premises and workmen at Berlin and Innsbruck. Appointed maker to the Bavarian Royal Family. Recipient of various medals at Exhibitions throughout the world. Died 1897, after organising the firm in such a manner that 200 men were daily employed in coping with large orders from every country. An accomplished man, cultured conversationalist, etc. who could proudly boast of any acquaintance with Kaiser Wilhelm, Prince Leopold, and many of the celebrated virtuosi and composers of his country. Spent the last few years of life endeavouring to solve the secret of the varnish of the old Cremona masters. The firm produced all grades of stringed instruments from ten shillings upwards. “Solo Violins” and “Solo ’Cellos” were the personal work of Ludwig. Superior workmanship at the relatively small price of £15. Perfect modelling and replicating of the Messe Strad, or the Paganini Guarnerius, Amati, and Maggini. Finely wooded, richly varnished, and of splendid tone. Produced interesting copies of the Servais and Lübeck Strad ’cellos. Also made bows for artists.
"

The Bass I have just barely qualifies on the "Where are They?" in date as my estimate of c.1860 is the minimum age I was looking for, just hitting 150 years old now. On some instances the Bass looks over 200 years old but that's mainly because of the hard life it's had from constant use as well as the irregular Birdseye Maple wood used for the Back and Ribs. The Top is quite healthy for its age though. The Bass is very comfortable to play and is currenty the Bass I take out most since it's the closest in feel to my former Martini, just not quite the sound as this one is very 'German' sounding but 'old' German.
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  #62  
Old 03-04-2011, 06:33 PM
Jeff Campbell Jeff Campbell is offline
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Default Here's a BIG one

Hello Ken,

I came across this bass and posted some pics on this thread a while ago, but I finally had a chance to take some measurements - this is a BIG bass.
The measurements are thus:

top bout - 21.5
middle bout 15.5
bottom bout 28.5
length of back 49
string length 44.5

Just for fun, I put it next to my big bass and it's interesting to see the two of them side by side.
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  #63  
Old 03-04-2011, 10:14 PM
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Question ??

Which bass is which?

Ok, the reddish one is the big in and your bass is the brownish colored slightly smaller bass, right?

4/4 Bass; .................. My 3/4-7/8 Neuner, English model;
top bout - 21.5...................21.25"
middle bout - 15.5................14.75"
bottom bout - 28.5.............28"
length of back - 49...............45"
string length - 44.5...............41.75"

The two basses, yours and the 4/4 beast are typical Mittenwald style and look very similar in style. My Neuner is more of an English copy with only the construction being German but the model looking English. The upper and lower bouts are very close comparing the 4/4 to the Neuner but the size is way different with the Neuner having a normal length for today's playing or rather short for its time and the 4/4, just what it was made as. Typical 4/4 German. There are some older English basses like that as well from the few I have seen as they are copies of the Germans I think.
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  #64  
Old 03-04-2011, 10:57 PM
Jeff Campbell Jeff Campbell is offline
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Default Thanks Ken

It's funny to have you call mine the 'smaller' bass, because it's a very large instrument and from the looks of things, it was cut down and very well would have been the same size as the the big red one. What about the gears on the big one? Have you seen others like these? Someone said the red bass may be French but I see N&H or maybe Seitz - Mittenwald personified. On another note, will you be at the ISB this year?
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  #65  
Old 03-05-2011, 12:12 AM
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Cool Gears..

The red Bass is the same pattern as your bass. The neck is a dovetail sitting on top of the block. That is also 1000% German/Mittenwald style. Your bass is just about the exact same outline, corners, back and back center. Same school or shop but maybe not same period, maybe yes. NOTHING is French about either of the two basses. The Gears are 1000% German Gears as used on the Neuner & Hornsteiner Basses. The other ones like on your Bass I have seen on a Seitz bass and a few others. Sometimes not on plates. I had a set on my Big Gamba but there were not original to the Bass as mine was a 3-string bass originally. They were so heavy (iron, brass and steel I think) that I gave them away to Paul Biase.

What is it with people/dealers calling every nice German bass French? They seem to be totally clueless as to what the differences are. Maybe it's money driven motives or maybe just ignorance or blind ignorance for the money.

French Basses do not have necks set in like that and never have a black center strip in the back. Many German basses have German made individual gears. One player I worked with awhile back has a sloped shoulder bass with outer linings (German), gears like the red bass and purfling around the plates. I knew it was a Mittenwald bass and perhaps a Neuner-Hornsteiner. I asked him in a naive voice, "do you know what pedigree your bass is?".. "Yes, it's a Lupot" he said told to him by a dealer. Lupot was the top French maker ever c.1800, before Vuillaume's period. He was the French Strad and ranked with Panormo. Lupot never made a bass and that bass of his was made about 100 years after Lupot. Still, if it has a hint of French style like Gears or Purfling, sell is as a French Bass. lol

Not to rant but I saw one German bass, a Markneukirchen bass, late 19th century. It was similar to the above bass but roundback, German plate gears and purfling around the plates. Inside the bass was a very old sticker "made in Germany" curved around a small tag. The TP had the German makers name written under it BY the Dealer that fixed it and naext to the Germany sticker, the Dealers repair label, all plain as day. THAT same Dealer sold this bass as French with Papers even describing the German linings as Mirecourt and an Insurance appraisal as well. The German make of this bass could not be more clear plus the Sticker said Germany and that same dealer worte the Gearman makers name on the bass and STILL sold and appraised it as French. How Brash is that?

Anyway, I have a concert in a month, Shostakovich 5th, etc.. Trying to choose between the Mittenwald and the Hart as to which bass to use. Decisions decisions..
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  #66  
Old 03-05-2011, 12:27 AM
Jeff Campbell Jeff Campbell is offline
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Default Thanks Ken

We're playing Shosti 5 in the Rochester Phil this week - had a concert on Thursday night and one on Sat. I played my old dark bass and had a ball. I sit next to a very nice Gagliano played by Bob Zimmerman - we had a wonderful time playing this great music. And during the concert, not one person asked us who made our basses.

Have fun with Shostikovitch -
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  #67  
Old 09-11-2011, 11:37 PM
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Cool belated news..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Campbell View Post
We're playing Shosti 5 in the Rochester Phil this week - had a concert on Thursday night and one on Sat. I played my old dark bass and had a ball. I sit next to a very nice Gagliano played by Bob Zimmerman - we had a wonderful time playing this great music. And during the concert, not one person asked us who made our basses.

Have fun with Shostikovitch -
Ok, the 5th was great. I brought my Storioni cornerless to the first 2 rehearsals and then for the Friday night 'hurry thru traffic to get on stage in time' rehearsal, I brought the Mittenwald for safety reasons on stage. I was invited that night to play a duet as an encore with the Piano soloist from Aussie land doing Rhap/Blue and ran thru Horace Silver's 'The Preacher' on the break. When he first asked me if I knew the tune I told him I worked with Horace when I was only 17 in 1969 so the tune went well. On Saturday afternoon I came into the office and tested playing Jazz between the Mittenwald and the Storioni. Well, the Storioni 'won' from what I could hear by myself so I switched basses again.

At the dress rehearsal the Princ. Cellist asked "where's that other bass you had?". That's when I knew it made a difference. I had Belcanto's on both basses I think. Or, maybe has the 92 Starks on the Mittenwald. I have gone back and forth on that bass.

Yesterday with a friend at the shop (a Philly Bassist) we tested all of the top end basses including the Mittenwald in a blindfold test for Orchestra playing from inside a sound suppressed room and it beat out the Hart and Storioni for low end spread and power. Not by much but he thought it was the Storioni when guessing which bass was which. The main difference may have been the Strings as I have the Flexocor 92 Starks on the Mittenwald. I still have a couple E/C starks in my private stock. Most of the other basses had Belcantos. I think the Bel's are great but the Stark 92s are the darkest power strings I have tried for Orchestra. The extra tension makes them great for Jazz as well. This is mainly true for basses with strong Tops on them. My former Martini sounded great with those strings as well.

Hey, in that Shoti.5th we both played last season (separately), did you guys use the all down bows (mainly) in the 2nd moovement? We did, Russian style that I picked up from a YouTube of a USSR orchestra. Also, they played all 4s, no 5s or extensions so the played all of the lows up. We were about half n half up n down.
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  #68  
Old 09-12-2011, 09:10 PM
Jeff Campbell Jeff Campbell is offline
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Default Nice Story

Hi Ken,

Nice to hear about your Mittenwald bass. I'm glad you had a good concert with the Shos 5. It's been long enough now that I don't even remember what bowings we used. I always keep copies of our bass parts so I'll have to dig them out and see. I'm still having a nice time with my old bass. I have a pretty tall bridge w/o adjusters. I saw the Pollmann boys at the ISB in SF and asked them a few questions about N & H / Baader. They wanted to see photos of my bass and the other Mittenwald basses I've come across. I sent them a few but have not heard back yet. The next ISB will be here in Rochester at the Eastman School so I'm looking forward to it. It will keep us very busy from then to now. Already had lots of meetings/emails/phone calls, etc. One of these days I'd like to get to your shop and see/hear some of your basses.

Kind Regards,

Jeff
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  #69  
Old 09-12-2011, 09:57 PM
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Thumbs up Isb/ny?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Campbell View Post
Hi Ken,

Nice to hear about your Mittenwald bass. I'm glad you had a good concert with the Shos 5. It's been long enough now that I don't even remember what bowings we used. I always keep copies of our bass parts so I'll have to dig them out and see. I'm still having a nice time with my old bass. I have a pretty tall bridge w/o adjusters. I saw the Pollmann boys at the ISB in SF and asked them a few questions about N & H / Baader. They wanted to see photos of my bass and the other Mittenwald basses I've come across. I sent them a few but have not heard back yet. The next ISB will be here in Rochester at the Eastman School so I'm looking forward to it. It will keep us very busy from then to now. Already had lots of meetings/emails/phone calls, etc. One of these days I'd like to get to your shop and see/hear some of your basses.

Kind Regards,

Jeff
Now that is just about close enough to drive to.

I might make it, might.

It all depends on what Basses I have in stock to sell and how busy I am at the shop that month. In 2009 it was in PA and I had my own display there. Of the 6 basses I brought, only one of them are left. I sold 3 of the 4 English basses first, then the 2 Italians and have 1 English left from those 6, The Hart.

Last edited by Ken Smith; 09-13-2011 at 07:57 AM. Reason: ISB
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  #70  
Old 05-18-2012, 05:16 AM
nick weldon nick weldon is offline
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Default Here's my large old German!

Here's my large old German - the stop is 43.75", the body length is 46.5", the width across the top bout is 21.625" and across the bottom bout 28.5". Bottom rib 8.75" deep.
The papers I received with the bass described it as Mittenwald, around 1820, but another luthier has recently disagreed, ( I think because of the scroll) and dates it later and not from Mittenwald.
Anyway, it's a fine old bass, which I love playing!
Any opinions gratefully received…
Nick
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  #71  
Old 05-18-2012, 07:15 AM
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Cool Mittenwald?

Quote:
Originally Posted by nick weldon View Post
Here's my large old German - the stop is 43.75", the body length is 46.5", the width across the top bout is 21.625" and across the bottom bout 28.5". Bottom rib 8.75" deep.
The papers I received with the bass described it as Mittenwald, around 1820, but another luthier has recently disagreed, ( I think because of the scroll) and dates it later and not from Mittenwald.
Anyway, it's a fine old bass, which I love playing!
Any opinions gratefully received…
Nick
First off Nick, it is hard to evaluate anything from just pictures on the Internet and these pics are not that good either. From what I have seen of Mittenwald basses, this one looks different. There are some that have that typical smaller upper bout with slightly sloped shoulders and a bigger wider bottom. Then, there are commercial basses made that look like all the rest of the Germans. Some Czech basses made near the German border look like this as well.

As far as the age goes, from the pics I will agree 19th century but 1820 would be hard to agree on from just these images. Looks like a nice bass but, that dark varnish was put over lighter brown varnish at some point from what I can see. That in itself makes it seem older than it might be.

If Mittenwald, it looks more like a commercially made Baader then anything from the Klotz-Hornsteiner-Neuner-Seitz-Reiger school. The Scroll may or may not be original to the body. Lots of bad things have happened to old basses and original heads do not always survive.

By the way, where are the Papers from, by whom?
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  #72  
Old 05-23-2012, 08:01 PM
nick weldon nick weldon is offline
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Hi Ken, thanks for taking the time to look - the evaluation was from Thwaites, I think, a very well respected luthier here in the UK
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  #73  
Old 05-23-2012, 08:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nick weldon View Post
Hi Ken, thanks for taking the time to look - the evaluation was from Thwaites, I think, a very well respected luthier here in the UK
Thwaites is a shop that deals in all strings instruments and they have handled many great basses over the years. Like I said, from the pictures, it can go either way but I have seen at least one Mittenwald bass that looks similar to yours. Not all Mittenwald basses have a specific look. After all, they are German as well and most of all, German makers usually follow the Italian and/or the Tirol school in one way or another.

I have done a bit of business with Thwaites as well over the lase few years but thru personal meets here in my shop with Bill P.. Next time you are in there, give Bill my personal regards.
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  #74  
Old 09-28-2012, 10:49 AM
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Cool and another.. (Rieger)

I have seen this huge bass (116cm s.l., 45.66") on-line many times and it's listed as an old English bass played in the Finnish Radio Symphony. A few weeks ago I noticed the small ebony arrows inlaid in the upper gamba bout corners of the Top. The only maker I know of that does that is Josef Rieger of Mittenwald (19c.). Rufus Reid has a bass by him as well. This one has a lion head as well.

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  #75  
Old 09-28-2012, 04:32 PM
Gerry Grable Gerry Grable is offline
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Default Arrows ?

Great looking instrument.
I can understand the lion's head, but why the arrows?

Last edited by Ken Smith; 09-29-2012 at 10:59 AM.
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  #76  
Old 09-28-2012, 05:09 PM
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Cool arrows..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerry Grable View Post
Great looking instrument.
I can understand the lion's head, but why the arrows?
I don't know why but that maker put them in his basses. I have seen 3 or 4 of them like that. Maybe it was his personal trademark.
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  #77  
Old 11-22-2020, 10:23 AM
Sebastian Nordstrom Sebastian Nordstrom is offline
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Default

Hello folks. There has not been so much activity in this thread for a long time so maybe it's time to revive it.

To answer the question in the topic:
Well, one is in Copenhagen. I'm doing my masters here and for this weeks orchestra production, one of my class mates brought his work bass; 1830s Neuner. He's doing his trial year in the DR orchestra and the bass belongs to them. BIG busetto. The sound is not "in your face" but it literally shakes the floor. And when you go out in the hall, it is more and more present.

I think the label says "Johann" something "Neuner" 183something. It's super hard to get a decent photo but I will try. I'm also a horrible photographer.
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  #78  
Old 11-22-2020, 10:30 AM
Sebastian Nordstrom Sebastian Nordstrom is offline
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Some more pictures. I don't know why some are upside down.

As I said, really tricky to get the label. We try not to handle each others basses so much at the moment, due to covid, otherwise I would have taken it out of the stand.

The bass has a little rosette under the fingerboard in the top, I also post a picture of that. And a photo of the basses next to it for size comparison. The first from the left is mine, since recently. Also an old mittenwald, but much smaller. It looks like a baby bass next to the neuner.
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  #79  
Old 11-22-2020, 04:03 PM
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Exclamation humm

The bass looks refinished and maybe the Top is new. I don't see the age there and the rosette?, never seen one on a German bass.
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Old 11-22-2020, 04:57 PM
Sebastian Nordstrom Sebastian Nordstrom is offline
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It might be refinished, I don't know. I agree that it is not the most charming brown.
If the top has been switched it would probably have been done a long time ago. I'm no expert but personally I think it is the original top. Is it a common thing to do, make a new top?
It's hard to capture with my not so good phone/bad photographic talent but it does look quite old when you get close, and look at the wear, texture (? maybe wrong word) and grain. The arching is very high. F-holes are nice I think, to bad I don't have a proper picture of the front.

About the rosette - I have only seen this on the internet, on super old italian basses. Maybe the "Johan" something "Nuener" who supposedly made this bass got inspired and decided to ad this feature?
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