"Cornerless Italian & Spanish Basses"

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Martin Sheridan

Ken,
What is the length of the fs on your cornerless bass?

Short but you will have to ask Arnold to measure them. He has the bass now and is fitting a plaster mold for the Top arching on the G side which was depressed over time. The Bassbar side is fine thankfully.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Matthew Tucker

Have we seen this one before? Supposedly Italian.

Sorry for the late reply Matt...

Yes, to my eye it looks very Italian or could be Spanish as well.

Where is this bass?

[Matthew Tucker]

It is, or was in Bruno Brett's shop in Paris. He calls it 18th C "Storioni school".

I have asked them for more information, but none forthcoming yet ..

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Matthew Tucker

It is, or was in Bruno Brett's shop in Paris. He calls it 18th C "Storioni school".

I have asked them for more information, but none forthcoming yet ..

Ever since the Elgar book came out with a Cornerless bass shown and the write-up about him making these, anything similar is usually named after him one way or another. I have head Rogeri as well on at least two occasions.

I was told that the bass in the book is NOT Storioni and there is another bass known as a Storioni in another Museum not far from the one that has the Cornerless. The other bass is not Cornerless. I also saw a smallish Italian bass, very old over here that belongs to the Curtis Institute that they call a Storioni as well. Violin cornered bass..

With my bass is restoration, looking inside it now and even before the bass was opened, it looks to be too old to be by Storioni but who knows?

Keep us informed if you hear anymore about this bass.

[Adrian Juras]

I know this is a bit of an older thread, but how is the restoration going on your Storioni Ken? I am looking forward to hearing your thoughts on it when it is complete!

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Adrian Juras

I know this is a bit of an older thread, but how is the restoration going on your Storioni Ken? I am looking forward to hearing your thoughts on it when it is complete!

Old thread start maybe but never ending I am sure.

What looked like a minor treble side Top pressing has been re-evaluated into being a total Top re-shaping. The Top is off and the neck is out with the Scroll/pegbox detached. The Neck is toast and incorrect so it's firewood. The Scroll is to be fully repaired and then grafted into the Block-cut carcass when it gets to that point. Time is our friend here as some of the stress and depression has come back on its own just getting some rest without the string tension on it. The rest of the Top shaping will be a major job. The Back and Ribs need total restoration as well.

Ask me again this time next year if I haven't already posted on it.. lol

You are welcome to ask Arnold BUT this may also fall under 'Doctor-Patient Confidentiality'!

[Carlos Villarreal]

i,ll just add this youtube link for those whohave not heard Edicson Ruiz videos on youtube with his 1750 cornerless Landolfi. Btw he uses 3 diffrent bridges, one for 3 string Bottessini stuff, another for low action vieneese tuning and another one with higher action for modern playing. I had a chance to hear this bass for a whole week when Edicson came to solo with our orchestra. Its a dark sounding instrument, that projects really well at far.

http://www.youtube.com/user/doublebassVenezuela

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Carlos Villarreal

i,ll just add this youtube link for those whohave not heard Edicson Ruiz videos on youtube with his 1750 cornerless Landolfi. Btw he uses 3 diffrent bridges, one for 3 string Bottessini stuff, another for low action vieneese tuning and another one with higher action for modern playing. I had a chance to hear this bass for a whole week when Edicson came to solo with our orchestra. Its a dark sounding instrument, that projects really well at far.

http://www.youtube.com/user/doublebassVenezuela

I have seen 2 other Basses named Landolfi. One was a 3/4 Gamba and the other a 7/8 Violin cornered. I don't remember if flat or round back. None of them including this cornerless look alike one bit.

He is a great player. The sound you describe could be the same if it were my bass as I've heard this from others in the past. Is this bass a Landolfi? Who knows as he even mentions 'possibly by'. The shape of his bass looks a lot like mine but not the FFs, just the body outline.

By they way, as my Bass is apart and in restoration it is looking about 50 years older than Storioni's period by two professional opinions so far. One thinks the Scroll has a Cremona flavor. The other thinks it's simplistically beautiful at the head. A third opinion as well as Arnold's and even mine now is that the rounded bottom of the pegbox is very possibly a later but very old modification. It was maybe done for a needed repair to a broken button. There are about 4 grafts visible in the back there. Arnold will leave a similar 2mm or so line across the button area showing the current graft as part of the bass's history. The rounded button area is there to stay. What's done is done!

[Adrian Juras]

Originally Posted by Carlos Villarreal

i,ll just add this youtube link for those whohave not heard Edicson Ruiz videos on youtube with his 1750 cornerless Landolfi. Btw he uses 3 diffrent bridges, one for 3 string Bottessini stuff, another for low action vieneese tuning and another one with higher action for modern playing. I had a chance to hear this bass for a whole week when Edicson came to solo with our orchestra. Its a dark sounding instrument, that projects really well at far.

http://www.youtube.com/user/doublebassVenezuela

Beautiful bass. There really is something pleasing about the shape of a cornerless(or guitar shaped) bass. Very intriguing. I look forward to hearing more about yours Ken as the restoration continues!

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Adrian Juras

Beautiful bass. There really is something pleasing about the shape of a cornerless(or guitar shaped) bass. Very intriguing. I look forward to hearing more about yours Ken as the restoration continues!

It is a slow going process. The Top mold is being made soon. Then it's a matter of time for the Top to be brought back gradually. In the mean time, the Back, Ribs and Neck will be worked on. Maybe I will have a special X-mas this year!.. Maybe I will win the lottery as well.. without even buying a ticket.. lol

I hope to see it sooner than later but it's a huge job. The other one I have in restoration might be done sooner. That is not as big a Job but no small one either.

[Ken Smith]

Today after another brief discussion with Arnold who is restoring the 'ex-Riccardi bass' I have decided to remove the Storioni attribution from the listing and change it officially to "Italian Guitar Model Bass, Italy, 18th Century".

When I first bought the Bass a well known historian that knew the Bass said it was not Storioni or even Cremona and most likely 19th century. When two prominent Bass Luthiers looked inside the bass their estimates were approximately mid-18th century, give or take a few decades.

Now that the Bass is opened up and getting worked on the 1750 or so estimate looks more likely than anything near the 19th century. Who actually made it? I don't really know, I wasn't there! Perhaps in the future something will come along and tell us more. I did see a slightly similar Scroll/pegbox on another Italian Bass but that had I think a replaced Back and was not cornerless. The FFs were different as well but, the Scroll was close and maybe not a match for the Bass it was on.

When I first heard of this Bass for sale about a year or two before getting it I was told it was a Rogeri. When I bought it the name was changed back to Storioni which it had been called before it was a Rogeri. Perhaps the Bass going to market was the reason for all the famous name calling.

This by no means in itself lessens the greatness of this Double Bass but it does relieve me in the 'burden of proof' if it were to be sold. Regardless, it will not change the asking price either!

[Adrian Juras]

Very interesing. Although I'm sure it will be difficult to find out who actually made the bass, I hope that as the restoration continues you and Arnold can find out more towards this. This is certainly an intriguing bass. Are you having Arnold make an extension for it as well?

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Adrian Juras

Very interesing. Although I'm sure it will be difficult to find out who actually made the bass, I hope that as the restoration continues you and Arnold can find out more towards this. This is certainly an intriguing bass. Are you having Arnold make an extension for it as well?

An Extension will be made similar to the latest ones made for the Hart and Jacquet. All Orchestra grade Basses I have get Extensions so that they are complete in their own way.

On the maker, I don't know what clues could be found short of a label or inscription by the maker. Even then, proving the name to be real to the bass would be nearly as difficult. With 'one-off' makes or one-of-a-kinds there is very little to match up as far as a maker goes. This bass is quite unique in itself.

I will be happy with just the bass being repaired, restored, healthy again and sounding like it did before. A name wont do all that much except to use for marketing the bass when it gets sold.

Even in the old shops in Italy it is believed that basses were less important than violins so it could be from a particular shop but not made be the master himself. In that case we are dealing with a 'shop bass' that may have one or more 'unknown' hands in the mix. At that point, no one knows who made what unless they were there to witness it.

[Ken Smith]

Ok, here's a few pics of the Bass during the Varnish touch-up stage that Arnold just sent me. I have several pics of the repair process but like watching a Heart Transplant, some internal operative pics are not for the faint!

The flame in this maple is the best I have ever seen. The Scroll repair from the old extension cut in this pic is invisible to my eye.

[Ken Smith]

I don't remember seeing this Bass posted but I just found it on line (Vito Liuzzi's site), Pedro Valls;


I am not 100% certain but I think this is a Spanish Bass.

In searching on the 'net I read this eye opening paragraph;
"In Spain, two new fretted string instruments related to the lute emerged in late medieval times and spread around the Western world. These were the vihuela (Spanish guitar) and the viol. Our modern, classical guitar is a direct descendant of the vihuela. Because it was plucked it was often called vihuela de mano (hand guitar). Related to it was a Spanish instrument called the vihuela de arco (bowed guitar), better known as the viol. The viol was developed in Spain in the late 1400s. It had six strings and was fretted and tuned like the lute and vihuela, but it was bowed, not plucked. It came in different sizes and was played with the instrument resting on the lap and legs. It is often called by its Italian name viola da gamba (leg viol). Having entered Italy from Spain, it quickly spread from there throughout Western Europe."

From; "The Invention of the Violin and the Spanish Guitar"

It seems from this article that the Guitar Shaped Viol came from Spain originally and not Italy. Not counting politics but rather the intermingling of makers training in Italy from Spain it's easy to see how the two styles would merge into almost one. The Italians borrowing from Spain and the Spanish making Italian Violins. J.B. Guillami and Juan (Johannes) Guillami are reported to have trained in Italy. Juan II's instruments looking the same as the fathers but the father reportedly a better maker. Both are famed for their Double Basses, rare, sought after and valuable. J.B. Guillami is referenced in one of my books but the main book on Spanish makers by Ramon Pinto sells from $250-450 and I don't have one. I do know where one is so next time I am there, I will try to spend a few minutes looking up the family of Guillami. I emailed Pinto a few times about my Bass and he never replied.

Is my Bass possibly by Guillami? If so, it's by J.B. or Juan I (possibly the son of J.B.) as Juan II is too late in time to be associated with this bass from the looks of its age. The Pinto book does not mention J.B. but the earlier Henley book does (not Jalovec!). Also, it's mentioned that J.B. trained in Cremona and dated his instruments as if made there. It could be possible that J.B. IS actually Juan/Johannes and just anti-dated some of his instruments upon returning from Italy, possibly Turin or Naples. It is not uncommon to see makers anti-dating their work or place of making for profit or whatever. It is also possible that for some reason, his name was left out of the book as no single book is perfect. If Pinto believed J.B.'s labels as being an Italian maker, then he may have left him out of the Spanish listings. The Spanish school being of less importance than other parts of Europe may also be to blame for the lack of research we see as compared to other schools of making.

In reading the elder dated J.B. as compared to Juan I, the description of work of J.B. fits more along the lines of my Bass as his Violins (I think) are described as having fine wood and wide purfling as well as a similar varnish color to my bass. This could fit a thousand other makers but between these two, I go with the earlier by description.

Compare this on line copied from Henley as compared to the Link from the Pinto book;
"GUILLAMI, JUAN (1)
Worked at Barcelona, 1720-1765. Pretty outline based on Stradivarian principles - sometimes reminiscent of a Gagliano. Arching of medium height. General style quite of Italian traits which he had imbued during several years’ sojourn in that country. Said to have been A pupil of Guadagnini. Had no plastic mind to control his somewhat erratic portrayal of a scroll, this being altogether of weak conception, thickly built but of narrow proportions. Ridges of volute marked with Indian ink. Ribs rather deep. Measurements: Body length, 35-1/2 cm.; upper bouts, 16.7; middle, 10.8; lower, 20.7. Belly wood always of close and strong fibre. Reddish shade of oil varnish, but not particularly supple.
’Cellos of fair Stradivarian design, well-calculated arching, and golden red varnish. Also several much sought for double-basses.
-----------------------------
Joannes Guillami me
fecit en Bar: anno 1760
-----------------------------
--------------------------------
Joannes Guillami me fecit
en Barcelona 1742
--------------------------------
Branded near sound-post. £450, 1959.

GUILLAMI, JUAN (2)
Son of the preceding. Worked at Barcelona, 1767. Died 1820. Similar style to that of father, but a defined line of demarcation rests between the workmanship, wood, and varnish. Wood often carelessly chosen, particularly that for the tops. Varnish rather brittle and chippy.
Also ’cellos and double-basses. £300, 1959.
---------------------------------------
Joannes Guillami
filius fecit Barcinone anno 1768"

[Matthew Tucker]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

Had no plastic mind to control his somewhat erratic portrayal of a scroll ...

so THAT's what I need

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Matthew Tucker

so THAT's what I need

Hey, I am just posting the Link. By the way, if you have the Henley Book or follow that Link site changing the URL letter code alphabetically, you can read much of what's in Henley but not all the makers listed. Very interesting reading regardless of the accuracy of the information.

Note: JB Guillami is listed in Henley but the edited book on line does not list him.

http://www.ricercare.com/research/library/dictionary/g_contents.html

s_ or a or g or whatever letter you like. I am surprised that site does not credit their source. After reading a few of the makers, I looked them up in Henley and found it's a copy!

[Matthew Tucker]

Only crappy pics to compare with, but FWIW I think the outline, ff placement and neck block of the bass shown above are very similar to the cornerless bass on page 116 of Elgar's book.

[Adrian Juras]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

Ok, here's a few pics of the Bass during the Varnish touch-up stage that Arnold just sent me. I have several pics of the repair process but like watching a Heart Transplant, some internal operative pics are not for the faint!

The flame in this maple is the best I have ever seen. The Scroll repair from the old extension cut in this pic is invisible to my eye.

WOW! That looks GREAT! Arnold did a terrific job on the scroll. The whole bass looks great.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Matthew Tucker

Only crappy pics to compare with, but FWIW I think the outline, ff placement and neck block of the bass shown above are very similar to the cornerless bass on page 116 of Elgar's book.

Yes, similar not so curvy outline as with my bass as well as others I have seen that we think are Italian but who knows. I was informed some time ago that the bass on page 116 is NOT a Storioni but that's what it's called in that book.

The basses with less curve have more long continuous grains of wood in the top and back plates having wider center bouts which contributes to the sound.