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  #1  
Old 01-24-2010, 08:55 PM
Carlos Villarreal Carlos Villarreal is offline
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Default Tyrol, bohemian , German?

Hi all

i,m about to buy this bass from a former teacher of mine. i already post this same pictures at TB and members jason and paul and some others tell me its Tyrol, Bohemian or German. What do you guys think?..
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  #2  
Old 01-24-2010, 11:10 PM
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Cool well..

Does this Bass look similar?



The Scroll on your Bass looks different. I need to see from the front and check for a neck graft. Your Neck looks to be set into a block rather then sitting flush on the Top. This to me says that it has been modified and possibly replaced totally, scroll and all.

These basses have been known as blockless wonders which you can read more about on this forum here and here. These basses were produced into the early 20th century and I have even seen an old advertisement of them from Wurlitzer in 1922 selling from $90. to $180. for the top model and one with 5-strngs as well at that price. All are advertised as 3/4 models but the string lengths average closer to 43" on some and some at 42". Sears also sold them so there may have been more than one factory making these. The prices included a bow, rosin and fingerboard chart. The top two models were round back. The others I assume were flat. The lowest model possible un-purfled but the 2nd and up were advertised as 'edges are finely inlaid' and ebony fingerboard where the $90 model has no mention of either.

The Sears ad which I also have shows a similar bass with the raised neck block area selling for only $75. and can be purchased with only $7.oo down payment. They are 'Made in Germany' according to the ad. This is from 1937. They also state that it comes with 'Imitation old finish'. This may be why they look older than they are. These are made after the first war and before the 2nd war. Of course in 1937 war was breaking out again but this ad is NOT the introduction to the model. Just an old ad I have a copy of. I think after the war in the late 40s the production of these basses are gone.

The wood of the top, back and sides are thinner than average and helps the sound at first. This also helps them crack faster as well. With prices like these especially at $75-$90, the wood must have been cut the day before it was varnished or not far from it. That also makes basses crack and fall apart.

I have seen many many of these basses and most are in horrible condition. A few however looked half the age of the others. Perhaps these were the more expensive ones with aged timber, what ever aged was back then.

Your bass which is usually called Tirolean (Tyrolean) is more than likely from Germany. I don't know really where these were made as southern Germany is at the tip of the Tirol. Maybe some day we will learn which factory made them. In the south I can only think of Baader, a Mittenwald firm that out produced Neuner & Hornsteiner by far and for cheaper from what I have read.

Call it German Tirol to play it safe.
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  #3  
Old 01-25-2010, 08:09 AM
Carlos Villarreal Carlos Villarreal is offline
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Default thanks Ken

Hi Ken:

This is great information, the owner was unsure but he assumed that it was early 1800,s ....i,ll have a luthier check for the block, but it feel like it has one on the sides below the neck.

The instrument sounds very nice, definitly has ths the complexity of sound of an old instrument in good day I think is better than a so so Italian. Although it has several repaired cracks , For the past 18 years after its restoration has remained in very good condition with no buzzes or cracks.. I understand puting a price is very difficult whithout inspecting the bass in person, but would you say 15 k is an average price for a bass as this.

Again i really apreciate your input, tnx a lot,
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Old 01-25-2010, 08:34 AM
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Cool 15k?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlos Villarreal View Post
Hi Ken:

This is great information, the owner was unsure but he assumed that it was early 1800,s ....i,ll have a luthier check for the block, but it feel like it has one on the sides below the neck.

The instrument sounds very nice, definitely has the the complexity of sound of an old instrument in good day I think is better than a so so Italian. Although it has several repaired cracks , For the past 18 years after its restoration has remained in very good condition with no buzzes or cracks.. I understand putting a price is very difficult without inspecting the bass in person, but would you say 15 k is an average price for a bass as this.

Again i really appreciate your input, tnx a lot,
If the bass is fully blocked, restored to 'Museum quality' and sounds Italian, then yes, maybe! I would need to see it in person to do a full valuation for a real personal opinion. This is just talk! Mine is in repair now and will cost at least that for the repairs alone. For a regular old $100 blockless bass I would say no way. They were made cheap to sound old when new. Make sure the bassbar area has no sinkage. I am having my bass' Top fully pressed out and repaired inside to last a lifetime or more. Mine sounds beautiful as well and that's the reason I bought it and am spending an insane amount fixing it.

Also, this style of building is at least 200 years old so late 1800s is possible. The import dates of the Ads I mentioned above do not necessarily date your exact bass. It could just the the period in which they started buying them for the USA market..
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  #5  
Old 01-25-2010, 10:03 PM
Carlos Villarreal Carlos Villarreal is offline
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Default tyrol"poor man Italian,s".

Hi Ken:

I just check today for the block me and a luthier/bassist friend of mine and YES there is a block there. Not a very big one but there is one. I also called bassmaker David Estrada who did the restoration 18 years ago and told me the block was there already, he just reasembled that part. So most likly as you said it was already blocked and probably had also another neck put in way earlier. This bass was brought from Poland to Mexico 20 years ago, and before that I been told it was stored for around 40 years.

David who did the restoration believes it to be early 1800,s based on his experience with wood oxidation, but again its just his speculation. We also checked the bass bar area and there is no sinkage at all, the Top has a very nice oval shape (bombatura).

Anyhow i just close the deal today and I,m buying it based on its unique dark sound, easiness of respone with the bow, and overall complexity of tone. Most likely I,ll use it for chamber music and at home, NOT for the tours.
Again thanks for your sharing your research on this "Blockless wonders" or "poor man italian,s".
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  #6  
Old 01-25-2010, 11:19 PM
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Thumbs up ok..

The best of luck to you and your new bass. It's always best for the bass to find a new home.
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  #7  
Old 03-03-2010, 10:56 PM
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Exclamation leave it in?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wayne holmes View Post
Carlos, do you know if your bass has an integral bass bar or not. I have just begun restoration on a 7/8 that fits the description of the lowest model-the purflingless one that Ken describes. Mine has an integral bass bar. The top looks like it has kept it shape, so I am wanting to leave it in-Any suggestions from anyone? I am encouraged that mine has a possibility of sounding better than I anticipated. Thanks
NO! Scrape it out. It is NOT a Bassbar. It only 'looks' like one. The shape is good by luck, not by design. Make it into a real bass with a proper 'Bar and all the correct blocks, neck stand, angle etc.
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  #8  
Old 03-03-2010, 11:46 PM
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Lightbulb integral..

Quote:
Originally Posted by wayne holmes View Post
Ken, are these so-called integral bars---should they always be scraped out? Or, does a new bar installed always help the bass, if so, how? Just trying to learn something here- thanks
If the 'Bar is part of the Top then it doesn't function like a Bar either. Also, do not spring the Bar when you put the real one in. Arnold can explain it better than I can but a chunk of wood left in the Top does not act like a real bass-bar does in just about every-way. You are not putting in a 'new' bar. You are putting in its 'first' bar. It never had one!
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  #9  
Old 03-04-2010, 09:23 PM
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Cool hey??

Quote:
Originally Posted by wayne holmes View Post
okay, thanks Ken-Yes, I have already learned my lesson on the springing-in

Arnold, no hurry, but if you have the time-please explain

Anyone else have any experience or words of wisdom about removing an "integral bar" and installing a new bass bar? Is there a big difference?
thanks
What, don't you trust me? Can you count on your fingers the number of Luthiers that RUIN basses with bad bass bars or sprung in or integral left in?

Trust me when I tell you that I cannot count the number of basses that have gone thru my hands. Now you just need to do it and/or learn how to. There is no other option as far as repairing the bass and making it right as far as I can see.

If Arnold has time I am sure he will try to explain it. Right now he has to finish the C extension on my big English Bass (Panormo School), pour the top mold for the Storioni and get that bass going and completed this year and then finish one of his basses so he can start the copy bass and finish that as well b4 x-mas. I will be a very very happy man if all goes as planned. .. Then, he can log on and answer questions... lol

Practice practice practice..
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Old 03-08-2010, 08:49 PM
Charles A Thomas Charles A Thomas is offline
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Default bass bar

I have a GA Pfretzschner that is currently under the knife. It had an integeral bass bar which was removed. I wasn't sure it was the thing to do and had to decide whether or not to do it. Turns out there was a crack along side the bass bar so it had to come out, dumb you can be, luck you gotta have. I don't know if it means anything, but the purfling on the back has the same shape, elongated teardrop, I think it is from that same period, it is definatly a Pfretzschner though, it has football shaped stamp inside with makers name
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  #11  
Old 03-08-2010, 09:07 PM
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Cool definatly a Pfretzschner??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles A Thomas View Post
I have a GA Pfretzschner that is currently under the knife. It had an integeral bass bar which was removed. I wasn't sure it was the thing to do and had to decide whether or not to do it. Turns out there was a crack along side the bass bar so it had to come out, dumb you can be, luck you gotta have. I don't know if it means anything, but the purfling on the back has the same shape, elongated teardrop, I think it is from that same period, it is definatly a Pfretzschner though, it has football shaped stamp inside with makers name
Do you know what a Pfretzschner actually is? It can be any bass that the importer stuck that label in. I have seen many and they were not all the same except for the label, made in USA! The label that is.

Integral Bar? YES, it's not a real bar so get it shaved out and put a real bar in to save the bass. How was the crack fixed under the bar area?
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Old 03-09-2010, 01:02 AM
Charles A Thomas Charles A Thomas is offline
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Default GA pfretzschner

No, I don't claim to know anything about the history of this bass, I wish I did. I do know what a good stringbass sounds like. I have the bass in the shop of Robert Ross in Denver CO. I believe him to be a compitent repairman. He has sent me pictures of his progress, the ribs were shortend, and new block on lower bout, he has cleated some cracks on bass bar side of lower bout rib, he has leveled a sag in the top under g-string side of bridge, he has splined a open crack and it looks like all cleats have been replaced. The bass bar has been removed and some over thickness has been changed. The last time I talked to him he said he added some spruce to the area where the sag was. I went on his advice to do the work on this bass, I am hopefull on the outcome.
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Old 03-09-2010, 05:28 AM
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Cool sag?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles A Thomas View Post
No, I don't claim to know anything about the history of this bass, I wish I did. I do know what a good stringbass sounds like. I have the bass in the shop of Robert Ross in Denver CO. I believe him to be a compitent repairman. He has sent me pictures of his progress, the ribs were shortend, and new block on lower bout, he has cleated some cracks on bass bar side of lower bout rib, he has leveled a sag in the top under g-string side of bridge, he has splined a open crack and it looks like all cleats have been replaced. The bass bar has been removed and some over thickness has been changed. The last time I talked to him he said he added some spruce to the area where the sag was. I went on his advice to do the work on this bass, I am hopefull on the outcome.
I think he means that he pushed the Top out with one of a few methods and added some wood 'inside' to a thin area and 'feather graduated' it in. Sounds like your bass is in good hands and being what I consider 'corrected'. Many of these basses were made thin or thick in area for whatever quick-make way they used.

On my Tirol bass the top will be put in a mold to be corrected and pushed out. The bassbar and cleats removed beforehand and then all re-repaired after the top is back to its correct arch. Wood will be added back to areas that were either made thin in the making originally or thinned by over zealous repairmen down the road. Either way, this is the normal and correct procedure for bringing a bass back to life. I have had many basses repaired in this way. The results were always positive. Give the bass 2-5 years to settle in. Then, it will improved little by little over time with its new wood inside. Like an organ transplant, it taked time for the body to accept its new component.
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Old 03-09-2010, 05:37 AM
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Question design on back..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles A Thomas View Post
I have a GA Pfretzschner that is currently under the knife. I don't know if it means anything, but the purfling on the back has the same shape, elongated teardrop, I think it is from that same period, it is definatly a Pfretzschner though, it has football shaped stamp inside with makers name
Just to be clear tell me which of the three designs are on the back of your bass and also how close to the one you pick is yours? Similar or exact!



I assume it's 1 or 2 but posted the last one which is also a common type design on the backs of German and Germanic style Czech basses as well.

The first is typical of north and east Germany and the second is usually from the Tirol German region.
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Old 03-09-2010, 08:44 AM
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Smith View Post
I think he means that he pushed the Top out with one of a few methods and added some wood 'inside' to a thin area and 'feather graduated' it in. Sounds like your bass is in good hands and being what I consider 'corrected'. Many of these basses were made thin or thick in area for whatever quick-make way they used.

On my Tirol bass the top will be put in a mold to be corrected and pushed out. The bassbar and cleats removed beforehand and then all re-repaired after the top is back to its correct arch. Wood will be added back to areas that were either made thin in the making originally or thinned by over zealous repairmen down the road. Either way, this is the normal and correct procedure for bringing a bass back to life. I have had many basses repaired in this way. The results were always positive. Give the bass 2-5 years to settle in. Then, it will improved little by little over time with its new wood inside. Like an organ transplant, it taked time for the body to accept its new component.
This is similar what will have to be done to my recently aquired bass. I am looking forward to it, however I am going to continue to play the bass in the short term in its present state(provided nothing changes). This is 2nd Tyrolean I have owned that had an incredibly sweet and dark tone to it. Both of them with thin tops, and the previous one having been restored. Some of these basses are just great!
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Old 03-09-2010, 08:55 AM
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Thumbs up yes..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adrian Juras View Post
This is similar what will have to be done to my recently acquired bass. I am looking forward to it, however I am going to continue to play the bass in the short term in its present state(provided nothing changes). This is 2nd Tyrolean I have owned that had an incredibly sweet and dark tone to it. Both of them with thin tops, and the previous one having been restored. Some of these basses are just great!
My Tirol Bass (or is it German?) has had so much work done to it in the past it's hard to say who did what when. Now that it's on the bench all of the sins of the past will be corrected as best as possible. In the end, it will be a nice professional grade bass. I was owned and used by another area professional for 20 years before I bought it. It will be ready for the next lifetime of profession use before long.
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Old 03-09-2010, 01:43 PM
Charles A Thomas Charles A Thomas is offline
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Default purfling

Hey Ken, thanks for the info, the shape of the purfling on the back of my bass is exactly like bass no. 2, does this indicate a general date when it was made?
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Old 03-09-2010, 02:11 PM
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Question date?

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Originally Posted by Charles A Thomas View Post
Hey Ken, thanks for the info, the shape of the purfling on the back of my bass is exactly like bass no. 2, does this indicate a general date when it was made?
These were offered by Sears and one other US Distributor before and after WWI, the first war. They were made before as well before being discovered as a good affordable import bass. So.. from 1800 to 1930 or so? Just a guess!
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Old 03-09-2010, 09:24 PM
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Default purfling

The shape of my purfling on the back of my bass is exactly like number two bass
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Old 03-09-2010, 09:34 PM
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Cool well..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles A Thomas View Post
The shape of my purfling on the back of my bass is exactly like number two bass
My bass is apart and under the knife. The Luthier doing the work thinks its late 19th century (1880-1890), not earlier. So, compare it to mine to date yours. Sears advertised these as late as 1937 so I guess it ended when the war started.

Some were unpurfled. Woods varied from plain to fancy. Mine with all the flame and purfling I have to say was the top of the heap at that time but don't know what was being made when. Importing allows the buyer to choose and order the models desired. The older ones made and used in Europe were not necessarly the same as the models imported in the later pre-war era. Also, mine had Hatpegs on plates before the French gears were fitted. All the pics on the old ads from the 1920s and '30s show metal machines, not hatpegs.
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