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  #1  
Old 08-16-2010, 10:55 PM
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Ken Smith Ken Smith is offline
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Exclamation 9-1-1, 9-1-1, 9-1-1, Luthier on the loose..

Ok, sorry for the alarm BUT it is in no way a false alarm! Actually, it's a wake up call.

I have seen so much bad work done in my time as well as some that I would call Criminal.

Can you Sue for this if you're a victim?

Will they put anyone out of business if convicted in Court?

Has anyone served any time in Jail yet for Luthier crimes?

I think to date, the answer is 'No' for all of the above.

Why am I starting this thread? Well, just about every situation I am going to lay out here as well as some of the true stories I have seen evidence of I have already discussed here in one thread or another. The reason is to educate others what to look for, what to expect of good work, what to demand to be done and not to be done as well as what to look out for.

Ok, lets go down a list of things that some Luthiers in the past have done as well as a few things (if not all of them) that some still do that they shouldn't.

Scroll Graft: The Graft angle should always be within the line of the Fingerboard joint or slightly behind it. Never should it be pitched forward. Why? Because if it's forward of the FB joint you can't put a C-Extension on without cutting into the Scroll.

Continuing along these lines, the Scroll should never be cut on a valuable pedigree Bass, ever. Recently I was looking over a beautiful old Pedigree bass (no names) to possibly purchase to collect, play, clean-up and then possibly re-sell when I've had my thrills with it. When I went back to try the bass and make my final decision, I noticed for the first time that the Extension was sitting on a cut area of the Volute of the Scroll. The Extension was un-cut and left straight edged with no attempt shown to cut and inlay around the Scroll. Also, it didn't look like there was a problem with the Graft angle. This was just a lazy act by the Luthier who has also worked on and maintained this bass over the years. Well guess what? I walked away from the deal. I was so turned off by the Scroll cut and for no reason other than laziness that I decieded that I could not trust the internal work either if the same Luthier that did this, worked on the inside of the bass. So, don't ever Cut the Scroll on a good bass.

On one Bass I have in restoration now we noticed that the Top if not all of the Bass had been re-finished. Why? No matter how bad the condition was, touch-up, clear-coat and French polish would have been a better and more responsible decision. This is not a famous Pedigree (that we know of yet) but is still a nice old Bass. The stain in the Top has shaded the grain of the softer Spruce. The Maple Back and Ribs are tighter and harder grained wood so it was hard to see at first if these areas were re-done as well. The work is professionally done and I don't recall any obvious sanding scratches. Still, it was done and it shouldn't have been. Sometimes, Luthiers think that the final stage of a restoration is a re-finish. If you re-finish a bass, expect that if asked, I may NOT take it in trade or buy it for that reason alone.

One Bass recently had a sunken Top over the bassbar. We have all seen them. This one had the Bass bar sprung in so much that it pulled off the Bass after it couldn't sink anymore and ripped off a thickness patch with it that was put in to beef-up the overly thinned re-graduation that was over done as well. Since I didn't know this particular bass before it was worked on, I can't say if the graduation was necessary to begin with. The evidence left behind tells me it was overdone and wood has to be added back in to correct the thickness.

A scroll on one bass had been cracked and glued together with crazy glue. Now it can't be re-repaired so we have to work around it as-is. The machines cover most of the repair and the Scroll graft took out half of it as well so it is re-repaired but not exactly how I would have liked it to be done. DON'T let Luthiers use Crazy Glue on the Scroll, Top, Back, Ribs or any other permanent part of your bass. If you fix a split in your tailpiece or a shim in your bridge with it, fine, it's not a pernament part of the bass. TPs, and Bridges get changed all the time. The main components that make up a bass do not.

Be careful what shop you take your work to. Know somethinmg about these subjects. Discuss them with your Luthier. Don't let him de-value your bass by performing bad work on it. How would it feel if you brought me a bass fully restored to trade in or sell and I said "fine, I like the bass BUT, deduct $15k so I can fix and re-do all the BAD work that was done wrong". Would you like to hear that? I think not.

Have you ever been ripped off buying a used car? Ever been ripped off getting your car fixed? Well, if that happens you can take legal action. Has anyone taken action against a Luthier that you know of and won a case in court? I would like to know, really.

On Bass buying, names, origins, conditions and values, you can all be in trouble if you walk in to the wrong shop and you don't know anything but what they tell you. My experience?

Ok, one bass I sold years ago with one Italian label and two sets of papers to back it up now has a more famous name appraised, 100 years older and has a label to match. Is that even legal? PUT IN a Label and take the old one out?

German Basses being sold as French or Italian is another HUGE crime I have seen so many times.
One big shop even sold a 1/2 sized Blockless Wonder as an Italian Bass at about 10-20x its value for what it actually was then, in my opinion.
Another big shop sold a German Bass as french with papers and even described standard German traits as standard French traits and valuated it at least double its value at the time of sale. The repair work was not only bad inside, it was self destructive from the criminal acts performed internally. This I would call insult to injury. You get ripped off on the origin, price, appraised value and its going to fall apart besides.

I can fill a book with all of the crimes I have seen. I have spent thousands of dollars correcting bad and damaging work done by some Luthiers and that is PER Bass, not in total. Basses are big and do break on their own or get damaged by being so big anyway. Why does a Luthier have to injure the handicapped on purpose. Isn't that a shame? A crime?

This is the place to discuss this subject. I do not want to name Luthiers or actual basses here or even imply anything or anyone directly. Let's just discuss the Acts and what should or shouldn't be done as far as what's best for the bass in question.
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Old 08-17-2010, 02:49 AM
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Quote:
Basses are big and do break on their own or get damaged by being so big anyway. Why does a Luthier have to injure the handicapped on purpose. Isn't that a shame? A crime?
It is a shame, and in many cases should be a crime. I think there are two distinct reasons, coming from two different types of luthiers. There's the ignorant one, who probably has good intentions but doesn't know (much) better, and then there's the one I object to most - the "gambler". The guy who isn't so much repairman, caretaker, or even dealer so much as he's a bass pimp. All that matters to him is maximizing the apparent value of an instrument, whether it's the sound, pedigree, or both, so that he can not only market and sell it for as much money as possible, but reinforce his own image at the same time by becoming known as "the guy with the goods" in town. The bass suffers from the tactics employed to make it seem "better" - new label/papers, thinned top, short string length, sloppy repairs etc. and the customer ends up with a problem bass that he's not only upside-down in, but that probably doesn't really play and/or sound as good as he initially thought it did; or, if it does, it won't someday soon when it starts coming apart...
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Old 08-17-2010, 03:29 AM
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Lightbulb two kinds?

You left out the 3rd kind. The one that KNOWS how to fix a bass but to make more money the do it some sloppy way and charges a fortune. Also, well known famous shops selling what is NOT and getting the price.

Look, if they are not capable of doing the job they should get a different job. Also, for the veteran dealer luthiers, if they cant tell German from French or Italian from German, get another Job. Can a car dealer tell a Chevy from a Caddy? A Ford from a Lincoln? A Honda from a Lexis? Is it a crime to misrepresent? Yes, even in basses it is.

I know so many cases of criminal repairs and criminal sales that its not funny.

I know most basses are either not marked or labeled wrong but that is no excuse for lying outright.

I saw one bass for sale with a company name attached advertised as made in 1910. The company dissolved in 1889. It was a Riveiri-Hawkes marked bass but was only a German factory bass. Maybe 1910 but the R-H models were french Jacquet basses., This was German and not at all any kind of Hawkes bass.

Then one dealer marks a French bass by one of the sons of a famous bass making family as 1850. Then marked lated as another of the sons as well at 1850. Well if this was the true maker then he was wither 2 years old or 12 years old when it was made. Maybe the father made it but shouldn't the dealer at least know when they were born. This is published info and a big shop like this that does appraisals should know this.

With the well known Juzek imports, we know from published history that they started the company after the first war about 1920. All Juzek basses were supplied by shops and shipped to NYC and then labeled and sold. I saw a German looking bass as marked 'made in the Juzek shop in 1910'. Why? First off, there is no such shop. Second, it's 10 years before the company started. There is no way I can see that these dealers don't know this. I think they are counting on You NOT knowing.

Hey, you got 2-10s for a 5?.. Yeah, funny, but too many people are falling for that kind of math doing business with these shops.

Hey, how about a very old Italian Bass attributed to Maggini in for repair. The Luthier goes and re-graduates the bass without the permission of the owner, because he needs to correct Maggini's mistakes? Yeah, right. One of the inventors of the instrument needs help from the Butcher of...

Then a beautiful old Italian or English bass getting restored. Some think it's Italian and I think it might be an English bass but regardless, "Hey, by the way I re-finished it for you as well"... HUH???

I tell you now, if this happens to me, someone will get hurt.

Re-finishing an old Bass or re-graduating it to the point of near ruins is a form of Rape. Where is Rape legal? Selling a bass for something more famous and expensive is thievery. Where is stealing legal?

The Luthiers that don't know any better are not the big problem here as much as the well known experienced ones who should know better. Yes, I have seen bad work done out of ignorance but they just didn't know any better. When you see a fine instrument fixed with crazy glue, epoxy or carpenters glue because it's quicker, THAT is criminal.
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Old 08-17-2010, 03:57 AM
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Interesting that you compare the bass market to that of autos.

Most informed people, and certainly those familiar with the industry, know that when you visit a car dealer what you see is not what you get; similarly, that virtually every body shop out there (certainly those hooked to insurance) do bad work and will take advantage of you at every turn. These aren't things worth griping about or trying to change, rather, they're just part of life and if you want to buy a car or get one fixed, you educate yourself and wade in - if you play the game well, you come out fine - If you get screwed, the only one to blame is yourself.

And I'm not saying that salesmen who lie, bodyshops that do hack work and cheat, any of that is ok, because obviously it isn't!

So my question is - where does the idea of "buyer beware" come into play in the world of basses? It's hard enough for a person to learn the basics of buying and/or selling a car, or to understand how insurance and body repair works, let alone the ability to recognize on sight a car that's been wrecked and fixed - and there are infinite resources out there! So when it comes to basses, at what point and to what degree should a person buying a bass or having work done be expected to have his own back and know what he's dealing in? After all, business is business and this is America - making money is always at someone else's expense...
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Old 08-17-2010, 11:04 AM
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Exclamation ok, ok.. but...>

Buying a bass for 8k that was only worth 4k when you bought it is not business, it's robbery.

A dealer/luthier fixing a bass poorly or springing in a bar that well self implode is not bad work. It is vandalism.

Buying a modern Ford Escort and being told it's vintage Ford Mustang is not buyer education/buyer beware. The dealer is supposed to have the products labeled correctly. After all, he's the dealer representing the product and its not a Flea market as-is amateur to amateur type of sale. Deception is Fraud.

The last I heard, Robbery, Vandalism and Fraud were all crimes you could go to jail for and serve time.

Selling faked Hungarian Basses (or Violins or Cellos) and knowing they are Fakes is Fraud. Yet dealers continue to attempt to deceive until someone falls for it. How can this be legal and why are these people practicing this criminal deception NOT in Jail yet?

Look, you walk down a dark alley in a bad neighborhood late at night and two teens pull a knife on you and rob you. That is business as usual. But, you walk into a beautiful shop with violins through basses or maybe just basses and you buy a Hungarian fake and pay over 100k to get what you think is an old Italian classic. That is NOT business as usual. That is criminal deception. At lease in the alley you knew you were in trouble. In a Bass/Violin shop with permits displayed to do business and all the success and reputation you have been taught to believe you don't expect to be clubbed over the head by the shop owner. You are relaxed and trusting as you are talked to, showed around and given time to choose your instrument only to find out you were safer in the ally. There at least the kids could only take what you have. Not make you mortgage your house for some fake that will take years to pay for and only be worth a fraction of what you paid at any given time.

If you get a particular pedigree and it's back dated by estimate, its only minor but in the case of a Strad, paying 6 instead of 2 million, it's still a huge loss. Buying a Strad that is really a Fendt forgery is robbery as well.

Dealers and makers (in the minority, I hope!) have been robbing and deceiving for centuries. Bass players need to take action and get other dealers/luthiers in as witnesses to fight these crimes so it can at least slow down if not stop. I can see how mistakes can be made but people continue to go to these shops and even though some or maybe most of their dealings is honest, like in Russian roulette, there is that one bullet waiting for you.
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Old 08-17-2010, 02:41 PM
Adrian Levi Adrian Levi is offline
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I' m guessing that if an instrument is sold with a guarantee from the seller that said instrument is exactly what its meant to be , then there must be some legal recourse if the instrument turns out to be a fake . I wonder how often sellers are actually under the impression that they 'may' be selling fakes ? If I had the funds to go and buy an antique Italian Masterpiece then I'd be sure to have it carbon dated just in case it may be 'off' by 100 years or so

I also suppose that if a dealer knowingly sold you a fake instrument you may be able to lay a charge of fraud , whether or not you could prove that the seller actually was aware that he was selling a fake is another thing......
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Old 08-17-2010, 02:51 PM
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Lightbulb carbon dated?

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Originally Posted by Adrian Levi View Post
I' m guessing that if an instrument is sold with a guarantee from the seller that said instrument is exactly what its meant to be , then there must be some legal recourse if the instrument turns out to be a fake . I wonder how often sellers are actually under the impression that they 'may' be selling fakes ? If I had the funds to go and buy an antique Italian Masterpiece then I'd be sure to have it carbon dated just in case it may be 'off' by 100 years or so

I also suppose that if a dealer knowingly sold you a fake instrument you may be able to lay a charge of fraud , whether or not you could prove that the seller actually was aware that he was selling a fake is another thing......
Ok, show me a bass that had its pedigree proved by carbon dating, please.

Even if you find DNA from the actual maker, maybe he only touched it. Dating only proves the age of the wood and within a given range. It does not prove who made it or when.

Also, in this country, ignorance is no excuse for the Law. Intention may increase the degree of the charges but theft is theft.
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Old 08-17-2010, 03:08 PM
Adrian Levi Adrian Levi is offline
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Ok, show me a bass that had its pedigree proved by carbon dating, please.

Even if you find DNA from the actual maker, maybe he only touched it. Dating only proves the age of the wood and within a given range. It does not prove who made it or when.

Also, in this country, ignorance is no excuse for the Law. Intention may increase the degree of the charges but theft is theft.
I was thinking that even with expert opinion and the such , maybe it would be possible to carbon date a finish perhaps , just to add to the authenticity / I'm no expert on carbon dating but was under the impression that it was pretty damn accurate !
How often have you seen players with basses that are not what they think they are because they were duped, and have you seen fakes coming out of any of the better known retailers in the US ?
Also have you ever seen fakes that are almost visually like the real thing ?
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Old 08-17-2010, 03:50 PM
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Lightbulb

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Originally Posted by Adrian Levi View Post
How often have you seen players with basses that are not what they think they are because they were duped
I have seen a few of them. Usually they get them cheaper so they think they got a deal but still, they paid too much. One other sale happened awhile back and with 2 other appraisals took them to court and won. It cost him $10k to get his money back. The bass was well over 100k. The fake job was quite good to the naked eye.

Quote:
and have you seen fakes coming out of any of the better known retailers in the US?
I have seen a few that in my opinion were not what they claimed to be, so yes as far as fakes. I have seen many more also from better known shops that were sold as something else like French or Italian that were actually German. They buyer thinks he's getting a deal but is actually paying top dollar retail and more.

Quote:
Also have you ever seen fakes that are almost visually like the real thing?
I have seen a few that were harder to identify but unless they were used upside down or inside out or kept in the case for all its life the actual playing wear for basses that age was just not present. Taking them apart and scraping off the false oxidation stain inside will reveal the fresh wood.

Currently, Arnold has apart my old Italian Guitar shaped bass. No matter how much scraping he has done the dark oxidized color is IN the wood as deep as you go. This is true age.
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Old 08-17-2010, 05:13 PM
Adrian Levi Adrian Levi is offline
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Currently, Arnold has apart my old Italian Guitar shaped bass. No matter how much scraping he has done the dark oxidized color is IN the wood as deep as you go. This is true age.
I still think that Arnold should have your bass carbon dated asap
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Old 08-17-2010, 05:14 PM
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Thumbs up lol

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Originally Posted by Adrian Levi View Post
I still think that Arnold should have your bass carbon dated asap
Even better. I have him making a Carbon COPY as we speak..
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Old 08-17-2010, 09:46 PM
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Ken you are - for good reason - condemning cutting a scroll to install an extension. But what about drilling the scroll to allow the C string through? That's removing original wood as well. You could say it's easy to plug a hole, but then, its not that complicated to restore a cut scroll either. There are ways to route the C string past the turns of the scroll and into the top of the pegbox. Not as elegant but it can be done.
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Old 08-17-2010, 10:04 PM
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Cool C Ext..

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Originally Posted by Matthew Tucker View Post
Ken you are - for good reason - condemning cutting a scroll to install an extension. But what about drilling the scroll to allow the C string through? That's removing original wood as well. You could say it's easy to plug a hole, but then, its not that complicated to restore a cut scroll either. There are ways to route the C string past the turns of the scroll and into the top of the pegbox. Not as elegant but it can be done.
Yes Matt, you heard me right. The Hole is ok and works best. The cutting of the Scroll is a huge sin in my book. Many basses have holes already that wont work for the next extension. They get plugged and the next one drilled. I have bought many basses like that. The only bass I bought with the scroll cut was the Guitar model bass. That has a sound to die for. When it's all fixed, the repair will show only a little. The reason it was cut to begin with was because of a faulty angle scroll graft. I know who did what on that bass as well. The bass I walked away from was a nice bass but nothing like this one. I even played it in concert a few times with the cut there but it bothered me to no end. Now it is fixed and in its new neck already awaiting its mounting to the restored bass. That will happen before long. The Top is almost done and will be glued back on soon. Then the Back comes off and we are in the home stretch.
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Old 08-17-2010, 10:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Smith View Post
Many basses have holes already that wont work for the next extension. They get plugged and the next one drilled.
That's why i'm putting it to you that drilling a hole is NOT really OK in a master bass, any more than cutting the scroll is. A scroll full of plugged holes me no like!
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Old 08-17-2010, 10:21 PM
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Cool putting it to you??

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That's why i'm putting it to you that drilling a hole is NOT really OK in a master bass, any more than cutting the scroll is. A scroll full of plugged holes me no like!
Oh, ok. Put it to me.. lol

The String through the Scroll is normal and accepted. The chopping off of the Head is not.

I was going to run the string around on the first Ext. that Arnold made for me. In that case the Ext. would have needed a screw into the Head to hold it in place as the sideways pull around the volute would be fighting it.

Ask Arnold who has made dozens of Extensions and worked on 100s of Basses with them on already as well. I think his opinion works for me. I don't know any Luthiers more caring than him about the health and the value preserve of old basses.

I can't force you or anyone else to do things my way unless I am the one paying the bill. These are my views.
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Old 08-18-2010, 12:21 AM
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Ken, I gather from reading your posts on the subject of provenance that there is a certain amount of guesswork involved even among experts; I seem to remember that you've bought basses thinking they were from one maker and later changed your mind - after further research, study and reflection. And do you know (or strongly suspect) of any dealers who have changed the provenance in a willful attempt to defraud rather than simply having an option that maybe wrong?

And while I'm thinking about it, have you considered going public and naming those dealers who you can prove have replaced labels or altered the provenance of instruments specifically to increase the price in the manner you've described?
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Old 08-18-2010, 12:49 AM
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Cool well..

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Originally Posted by Dave Martin View Post
Ken, I gather from reading your posts on the subject of provenance that there is a certain amount of guesswork involved even among experts; I seem to remember that you've bought basses thinking they were from one maker and later changed your mind - after further research, study and reflection. And do you know (or strongly suspect) of any dealers who have changed the provenance in a willful attempt to defraud rather than simply having an option that maybe wrong?

And while I'm thinking about it, have you considered going public and naming those dealers who you can prove have replaced labels or altered the provenance of instruments specifically to increase the price in the manner you've described?
Touchy questions. Yes to about everything but I wont name names here in public. If I have a problem, I will handle it as I have in the past.

One Bass I brought in from Europe had an Italian label and was sold as such to me. I came back to the seller with information that disproved the origin. The dealer offered a full refund less shipping or adjust the price to something fair for what the bass actually was. I keep the bass, got a partial refund, had some work done on it and sold it for a fair price to a very happy customer. The selling price after all the repairs was still only about 2/3rds of what my original cost was un-repaired so you can imagine how good it was to find out what I didn't have and handle the problem.

Many basses are sold with names and labels that don't belong there and the dealer, unless a beginner in the field knows very well what he's doing. That is one of the ways to make money. Up the pedigree and the price along with it.

As far as changing ones mind, that doesn't happen that often but it's the most honest thing a dealer or seller can do. My Hart was a Fendt when I bought it. My Guitar bass was a Storioni when I bought it. My Dodd was a Betts when I bought it. None of those name changes however affected the price. They are still at least as valuable if not more. The Bass I bought in 1973 with a Rivolta lable now has a Rogeri label in it from last I heard. Now, I am all for changing attributions when new information is discovered but how in the world did that Rivolta label grow into a Rogeri label? .. Dealer tampering!

With some old basses that are nothing normal from what we usually see, they are often called Italian. Why? Maybe it's Dutch, German, Spanish, Hungarian or whatever. Not every odd looking old bass is Italian. Maybe most are not but the word 'Italian' jacks up the price. I have seen many basses that to me were German and were sold as Italian. Many old English basses have in the past sold as Italian and quite a few of the nicer German basses are often sold as French, Italian or English as well. It's a mess.

Maybe if all basses were branded inside the Back originally like the serial number on a Gun or a Vin number on a Car, less 'hanky panky' would be going on. If the Brand is missing, then suspect a Fraud in one way or another. Unfortunately this is just wishful thinking..
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Old 08-18-2010, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Ken Smith View Post
Touchy questions. Yes to about everything but I wont name names here in public. If I have a problem, I will handle it as I have in the past.

As far as changing ones mind, that doesn't happen that often but it's the most honest thing a dealer or seller can do. My Hart was a Fendt when I bought it. My Guitar bass was a Storioni when I bought it. My Dodd was a Betts when I bought it. None of those name changes however affected the price. They are still at least as valuable if not more. The Bass I bought in 1973 with a Rivolta lable now has a Rogeri label in it from last I heard. Now, I am all for changing attributions when new information is discovered but how in the world did that Rivolta label grow into a Rogeri label? .. Dealer tampering!
Those name changes were what I remembered reading about; thank you for the clarification. Like you, I don't understand how a bass could grow a new label, though as a point of reference, my early 60's Juzek (the date is a best guess from the old Bass Viol Shop in Cincinnatti) has a label that appears to be a Xerox (or whatever they had before 'real' copiers). Perhaps the distributor in New York was out of paper labels the day mine came through...
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Old 08-18-2010, 03:44 PM
kurt ratering kurt ratering is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Martin View Post
Those name changes were what I remembered reading about; thank you for the clarification. Like you, I don't understand how a bass could grow a new label, though as a point of reference, my early 60's Juzek (the date is a best guess from the old Bass Viol Shop in Cincinnatti) has a label that appears to be a Xerox (or whatever they had before 'real' copiers). Perhaps the distributor in New York was out of paper labels the day mine came through...
perhaps im wrong but... i was under the impression that all juzek labels look like that...
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Old 08-18-2010, 03:49 PM
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Ken Smith Ken Smith is offline
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Cool Juzek..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Martin View Post
Those name changes were what I remembered reading about; thank you for the clarification. Like you, I don't understand how a bass could grow a new label, though as a point of reference, my early 60's Juzek (the date is a best guess from the old Bass Viol Shop in Cincinnati) has a label that appears to be a Xerox (or whatever they had before 'real' copiers). Perhaps the distributor in New York was out of paper labels the day mine came through...
The Labels were probably on a sheet that they cut out one by one. I don't recall a single Juzek with a date inside them. I have seen a few older pre-War Anton Wilfer instruments that were imported by Juzek that were dated by Wilfer but never a date from Juzek. Juzek IS the importer, not the maker. One Wenzle Wilfer bass I bought from them was dateless as well. I wrote in a date in blue ink to make the year I first saw that bass in the shop. It could have been older BUT, 100 years from now someone will thank me for at least some reference of time. In my case, I made sure the inked date looked different from the printed label so they know it was done afterwards and not by the maker.

I would have to call Juzek and see if they remember writing dates on the labels. Often, they would just warehouse the instruments and put in a label when they set it up before shipping. I have also seen generic type German basses with Juzek labels that look nothing like a Juzek as well as basses attributed to Juzek or the Juzek shop. GUYS, there never was a Juzek Shop making Basses and Juzek himself (John/Jan) never made a bass in his life according to his Nephew Bobby. They were all contracted.

So, on that note, if I haven't seen your bass, now would be a good time to look at the instrument (back too mainly) as well as the label and see if it's all Kosher, or Juzek..
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